Gigabyte GA-Z87X-D3H with bridged PCI

[AndrewB]

The Merging Recommended/Required PC configuration page now recommends the Gigabyte GA-Z87X-D3H mother board.

This is very surprising since this board does employ a PCI-e to PCI bridge controller, which has not been recommended on previous implementations since the PCI performance on these motherboards is poor!

This curious point would translate into a simple question:
-Has Merging ignored their own advice, or
-Have the new implemented bridged chips been improved ?

Either way, looking at the block diagram for any Z87 chipset motherboard indicates that the PCI controller can never be directly routed to the Platform Controller Hub without intermediate steps. (As compared to the Q and X series chipsets recommended that do route direct to PCH).

Furthermore, on this particular Gigabyte example, the PCI, PCIe 1x, 4x and Gigabit Lan controllers all share a PCI Express bus. Is this not asking for throughput or IRQ issues ?

[maikol]

Hi,

I was wondering the exact same thing.

I need a MB with 3 legacy PCI slots, and there are not many around these days...

I've found these two, that share the same Z87 chipset :
https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Z87K/
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4570&dl=#sp

So they also use the same PCI-E to PCI Bridge, which made me wonder if, as you did, it would create bandwidth problems with PMX...

Would anyone from Merging have an opinion to share on that ?

Thanks, and all the best,
Maikol

[klaukholm]

I once tried pushing a pci bridge motherboard by using two pci with the bandwidth hungry madi cards.
There is no way I could get a full compliment of inputs going, but vaguely remember getting 32-36 in and four out at 2fs, but this is pushing the limits and not recommended.
I would surmise that three cards sharing a pcie bridge could be a real issue. (I presume you are using masscore, not an older PMX version with DSP?)

[maikol]

Hi Kjetil,

I hope you are well!

Thanks for your answer.

Would you by any chance have heard of a recent enough MB that would cope 3 PCI slots with native chipset PCI ?

All the best,
Maikol

[AndrewB]

Would you by any chance have heard of a recent enough MB that would cope 3 PCI slots with native chipset PCI ?
All the best,
Maikol

Hi Maikol,
Yes I did come across one when doing research for my build. I wanted to keep one PCI (non bridged) myself, just in case, but I didn't need 3pci.

It employs a C602 Intel chipset Platform Controller Hub (same choice for mine). Merging should take a look at this chipset since a workstation/server specification seems more professional than consumer level MOBOs.

So yes the board you might want look at is:
Supermicro x9sre
http://www.supermicro.com/products/moth ... /x9sre.cfm
http://www.supermicro.com/products/nfo/ ... .cfm?pg=MB
ftp://ftp.supermicro.com/CDR-X9-UP_1.22 ... Ri_SRE.pdf

I just looked at the block diagram. The three PCI-X are routed to a PCIe x4 controller. You will have to do some more research to see if this will lead to any issues. The C602 PCH natively supports PCI directly, but in this case it is a bit different situation.

[AndrewB]

Would you by any chance have heard of a recent enough MB that would cope 3 PCI slots with native chipset PCI ?

Ok,

I think I found one !!!

Supermicro X9SRH-7F
http://www.supermicro.com/products/moth ... SRH-7F.cfm
http://www.supermicro.com/products/nfo/ ... .cfm?pg=MB

Block Diagram indicates 3 PCI-33MHz direct to PCH. (page 24)
ftp://ftp.supermicro.com/CDR-X9-UP_1.22 ... /X9SRH.pdf

I'll take a rain check on the beer

[maikol]

Wow Andrew thanks for the research! I definitely

That seem's like what I'd need. I'm just curious about the onboard matrox graphics : do you use it or did you add another card ?

Cheers, and thanks again for the infos!

Maikol

[maikol]

Hi again,

I've also found this mb by supermicro : http://www.supermicro.nl/products/motherboard/Xeon/C220/X10SLA-F.cfm

It has 5 PCI Slots !

It could allow to build a not so expensive combination with a Xeon E3-12xx processor ?

Anyone familiar with the intel C222 Express chipset it uses ?

I've also just found this one from Jetway, using the Q87 chipset : http://www.jetway.com.tw/jw/ipcboard_view.asp?proname=NAF95-Q87&productid=1036

Industrial design, Q87 chipset, works with the Haswell processors, 4 PCI slots, and everything needed without to many bells and whistles, price is around 250$ => Sounds like the real deal to me, or ?

And even another industrial model from DFI : http://www.dfi.com.tw/products/ProductDetails.jsp?productId=1128&mainCategoryId=9&subCategoryId=66#

Some strange thing here : if you look at the 4th picture on DFI's product page, you'll see that it shows a "PCIe to PCI bridge" item. Does that mean that the problem merging experienced could still happen with a Q87 chipset ? Oh yeah, it really depends on the MB design...

Oh boy, this will never end!

Cheers,

Maikol

[AndrewB]

Hi again,

I've also found this mb by supermicro : http://www.supermicro.nl/products/motherboard/Xeon/C220/X10SLA-F.cfm

It has 5 PCI Slots !

It could allow to build a not so expensive combination with a Xeon E3-12xx processor ?

Anyone familiar with the intel C222 Express chipset it uses ?

These 5 PCI slots are bridged.

We didn't consider this board since it employs the LGA 1150 socket. You might as well buy a Haswell LGA1150. Don't know the C222 chipset, could possibly be more stable than Haswell, but it defeats the purpose of getting a workstation board.

I'm just curious about the onboard matrox graphics : do you use it or did you add another card ?

My guess, is in this case, you should purchase an inexpensive graphics card. ATI FirePro V3700 was recommended by Merging on the PC configuration page:
http://www.merging.com/support/pc-config

Our board doesn't have this on-board graphics option. We went with the HP workstation actually, but Supermicro has a very reliable reputation.
For the C602 / LGA2011 boards you should look at the Intel W2600 or S2600 series, Supermicro, and HP Z620 and Z820. HP will not have the PCI configuration you need, but look at these topics in this forum for choices on E5 16xx and E5 26xx Xeon CPUs, and other experiences, concerns etc.
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=9963
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=8519

[AndrewB]

I've also just found this one from Jetway, using the Q87 chipset : http://www.jetway.com.tw/jw/ipcboard_view.asp?proname=NAF95-Q87&productid=1036

Industrial design, Q87 chipset, works with the Haswell processors, 4 PCI slots, and everything needed without to many bells and whistles, price is around 250$ => Sounds like the real deal to me, or ?

Took a quick look at the user manual for this NAF95-Q87 board, and it doesn't publish the Block Diagram. My guess is that these PCIs are bridged. The Gigabyte Q87 series GA-Q87M-D2H board is also PCIe-to-PCI. This tells us that you need to check the block diagrams for every manufacturer these days. The Asus Q87M-E block diagram isn't available.

The Q87 chipset does support legacy/native PCI, and the Intel DQ87 routes two direct to PCH. This leads to my current assumption that any Q87 motherboard will only support two PCI without a bridge (but that is an educated guess).

The most important factor when selecting our Mobo was Reliability and Stability. Don't get too creative. Either we were to purchase a Turnkey PC, or spend a month of full time research to refresh outdated knowledge and anticipate any compatibility issues. This alone wasn't enough of course; we relied on advice from other Turnkey builders, and Merging Recommendations as a starting point. C602 workstations came up quite often, and they have a higher level of reliability than many or most consumer level Mobos. The time spent researching various important aspects (beyond just motherboards) seemingly gives the Turnkey option more appeal.

My advice is to stick to very reputable manufacturers. If you haven't put in the time and got your 'hands dirty', so to speak on the technical side, then be wary of straying too far from recommendations.

The Intel DQ87 for Haswell is a very simple and elegant choice without all the gaming features that have potential to get in the way etc.

The other consumer level choice that is still recommended (often even over the Haswells) is the X79 boards These would run hotter and draw more power, but do have options for more RAM and six core CPUs etc. DQ87 and X79 would be my only consumer level choices until we see the X99 release, and then further research is needed.

In the end we decided on a workstation platform. This option inevitably will cost more. You don't need to go overboard on dual CPUs, RAM etc. right away (thought make sure you get the fastest RAM supported by the CPU clock) just make sure you have good foundational components, that is to say your motherboard and appropriate CPU.

[maikol]

Andrew, thanks again for all this great info you share here !

You are actually right about the NAF95-Q87 board, I found the diagram : the PCI slots are bridged.

The only single CPU model from Jetway that seems to have native PCI is the naf93-q77 (http://www.jetway.com.tw/jw/ipcboard_view.asp?productid=979&proname=NAF93-Q77, but then that is a Q77 chipset, so I'd have to use an ivy bridge processor (which at least gives a cheaper option).

Seem's like an interesting option, though.

This DFI board also uses the Q77 and has 4 native/legacy PCI slots : http://www.dfi.com.tw/products/ProductDetails.jsp?productId=862&mainCategoryId=1&categoryId=9&subCategoryId=66&productDetailsPage=false#

But, as you wrote, no one ever recommended these for Pyramix, so risk there is...

The Intel DQ87 would be a nice option for me if it had 3 PCI slots... which brings me back to the Supermicro you found earlier !

Oh well.

[maikol]

Ok, eventually, I just ordered an Intel DQ87PG, which has only 2 PCI slots.

I will have to find a workaround for the lynxtwo card that is using the 3rd slot needed.

Thanks everyone for all the help, and sorry if I sort of hijacked the original thread!

Maikol

[AndrewB]

... The Gigabyte Q87 series GA-Q87M-D2H board is also PCIe-to-PCI. This tells us that you need to check the block diagrams for every manufacturer these days. The Asus Q87M-E block diagram isn't available.

The Q87 chipset does support legacy/native PCI, and the Intel DQ87 routes two direct to PCH....

Quoting myself to flag a very troubling development. There seems to be a conflict with the information posted by Intel !!

My comments were referenced upon the Intel DQ87PG block diagram. This does indicate PCI is directly routed to the Q87 PCH chipset.

However the Intel ARK ComparisonChart for the DH82Q87 PCH chipset indicates the opposite. With all this new information being shared, it looks like the Intel Q87 chipset does not support PCI expansion without a PCIe-to-PCI bridge chip.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=10352&p=32694#p32694

The conflicting documents are posted on the GS forum here:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/865879-new-motherboard-recommendation-3.html#post10273407

[AndrewB]

Ok, eventually, I just ordered an Intel DQ87PG, which has only 2 PCI slots.
I will have to find a workaround for the lynxtwo card that is using the 3rd slot needed...

Hey Maikol,

Now that the bridge chip discussion is on again, how is your experience with the Mobo ?

[maikol]

Ok, eventually, I just ordered an Intel DQ87PG, which has only 2 PCI slots.
I will have to find a workaround for the lynxtwo card that is using the 3rd slot needed...

Hey Maikol,

Now that the bridge chip discussion is on again, how is your experience with the Mobo ?

Hi Andrew and all,

Yes I'm now running here with 2 Mykerinos/AES in Masscore on a DQ87PG.

I've not had any pci bandwith error so far, though I'm experiencing an occasional "exception" error that crashes pyramix, but it doesn't seem to be related with PCI bandwidth.

Anyone else having these "exception" crashes ?

Cheers
M