Pitch shift with Prosoniq MPEX2 - use with care

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Gerhard
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Location: Landau/Pfalz, Germany

Pitch shift with Prosoniq MPEX2 - use with care

Postby Gerhard » Fri Oct 08, 2004 17:34

Hallo,

after using Prosoniq MPEX2 for a test period, I feel obliged to report the results here.
In short, the results seem not very pleasant. For most of its normal settings, MPEX2 produces more or less audible, rather heavy distortions.
Within certain limits, it is possible, however, to work with MPEX2. But you won't find the tricks in the documentation.
Merging/Prosoniq are urgently requested to officially unveal the program's secrets, or better improve it so you can in fact use it as intended.

Let's have a look at the facts in detail:

1. Changing the pitch by fixed time scale (non-varispeed mode) results in distortions throughout. 8O
If you try a signal close to a sine wave, you can hear additional, quite unpleasant tones (I don't know whether to call them "intermodulations", "residual tones" or whatsoever, sorry for my poor English. To describe the characteristics: when the original tone is "b", you can hear the lower notes "f" and "a flat", among other, higher tones. Let me call it "distortion" until someone tells me better.)
As a result, I would suspect that the pitch shift mode without varispeed is hardly of any use except for real emergency cases.

2. Pitch shift in varispeed mode
In most cases, you will hear the same distortions as described above, but with softer level, and starting after a certain time that varies between 2 and 10+ seconds. So the first few seconds (only!) are clean. The duration of the clean sound depends on the pitch value selected.

3. Now the good news:
with some particular pitch shift values, it works well for some longer time.
I made a test series for 48 kHz / 24 bit/ stereo, using a 500 Hz test tone with 40 sec. duration. There I found a kind of arithmetic order with no distortions occuring at all.
Those "good" fine pitch values ("fine pitch" represents 1/100 of 1 semitone, also called "cent") were as follows:
10 / 13,5 / 16,8 / 20 / 23,6 / 27,2 / 30,6 / 34,1 / 37,4 ...
Analyzing that order, I found their pitch relations very close to 48000/48096/48192/48288etc. or 1 : 1,002 : 1,004 etc. :idea:
The funny thing was, when I tried to verify those figures by a new test (after finding the formula), the distortions came in earlier again. Still better than normally, but not as ideal, and I don't have any idea which detail of my setup caused the difference. I simply gave up.

4. After all, it may be regarded another good news that in monaural mode all pitch values are o.k.! No distortion at all (please check for longer durations by your own, if you want to use this way... :wink: ). This fact proves that the program theoretically could work. Encouraging enough...

Regards,
Gerhard

Bernhard Guettler
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Location: Berlin, Germany

Postby Bernhard Guettler » Sun Oct 10, 2004 15:15

Hi,

I made the same experience. See my post from last year:

http://forum.merging.com/viewtopic. ... pitch#2486

Haven't used it much since and don't recommend it anymore.

Regards
Bernhard

prosoniq_support
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 21:48

Postby prosoniq_support » Sun Oct 10, 2004 21:49

Hi,

thank you for your interest in our products.

It is difficult to respond to your claims without having audio examples and a description at hand which demonstrate exactly what you're referring to. If you could provide these examples along with a detailed description on how to reproduce the problems (parameter settings, quality settings, channel setup etc.) we'd be glad to look into this problem rightaway if there is one. A download location or a CD via postal mail would be appreciated.

Also, we would appreciate it if you could try to solve the problem *first* by contacting the companies involved rather than posting to a public forum. Both Merging and Prosoniq are striving to correct all bugs and problems we're aware of and we have the means to report any problems you might find in an instant. We do not have the time to collect problem reports from public fora, let alone read all of them.

On a related note, you might be interested to hear that we're shortly releasing Mpex3, the most recent version of the time stretching technology which is both better and faster and should resolve the issues that you refer to.

If there's anything else we can help you with please don't hesitate to ask

Kind regards
The PROSONIQ Support/Info Team
http://www.prosoniq.com

NEW: Check out our new user forum at http://forum.prosoniq.com !

Gerhard
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2003 15:12
Location: Landau/Pfalz, Germany

Postby Gerhard » Sun Oct 10, 2004 23:35

Welcome Prosoniq,

thank you very much for your reply.
Yes I will send you a CD copy of my tests, would you please give me your address?

I understand your remark about my posting the problem to a public forum and actually was hesitating a lot. However, since I did not only point to the problem but also find out (in certain limits) a kind of solution, I decided to go the more "painful" way.
Bernhard Guettler (posting #2), for instance, probably wouldn't have noticed any problem if he selected 13,5 instead of 15 ct in his sole trying MPEX. There might be other users around just taking immediate advantage of my findings. So please excuse me.

Your remarks about Mpex3 sound very promising indeed.

Regards,
Gerhard

prosoniq_support
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 21:48

Postby prosoniq_support » Mon Oct 11, 2004 07:43

Gerhard wrote:Yes I will send you a CD copy of my tests, would you please give me your address?

Our contact details are at http://support.prosoniq.com/cgi-bin/register?service=start_contact. This is the same page where you have submitted your problem report yesterday, which brought this thread to our attention.

Gerhard wrote:[...].Bernhard Guettler (posting #2), for instance, probably wouldn't have noticed any problem if he selected 13,5 instead of 15 ct in his sole trying MPEX. There might be other users around just taking immediate advantage of my findings.

I see your point, but please understand that warnings like "use with care" can affect sales and therefore cause material loss on Merging's (and our) part. Before you consider issuing such a "warning" we'd appreciate if you would also consider the consequences of something like this in an open forum - the least you could do would be to give the companies involved a fair chance to evaluate and respond to your problems. Imagine that if you finally were to find out that the problem is caused by a misconfiguration or something of that sort, there is no way for anybody to undo the damage. In our experience, most problems can be dealt with by a workaround or a direct solution and only very few would justify a warning to all customers.

At any rate, it is very important for us that you contact us directly in the case of problems because we have no way of knowing (let alone rectifying) them if they are not brought to our attention. Also, to find a solution and to reproduce the problem we need reference material as well as an exact description of the parameter settings used. We usually do our best to respond in a timely manner - not because we fear confrontation with postings on the internet but because we value our happy customers. And as you can see, we try to respond to all support inquiries (like yours from yesterday) as soon as possible - sometimes even on a weekend!

Please respond via our official address using the support ticked ID PQCN898162 if you reply - even though we'd like to participate in this discussion our first priority is serving our customers which is best done through email and our CRM system.

Kind regards
The PROSONIQ Support/Info Team
http://www.prosoniq.com

NEW: Check out our new user forum at http://forum.prosoniq.com !

Bernhard Guettler
Posts: 885
Joined: Thu May 16, 2002 13:35
Location: Berlin, Germany

Postby Bernhard Guettler » Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:14

@Prosoniq:

Thank you for your quick reply. With this attitude I'm sure things will be rectified soon, thank you. But IMO it is a very normal procedure in the audio community and the rest of the world, to chat and inform about personal experience in public places like this forum. When somebody else thinks, I'm not the best person for a job at hand, he will talk about it to others, the world is cruel :-) Still we should consider the great contribution people like you give to our professional world.

At a convenient time I will try to send you my examples, since they are quite clearly showing some of the problems reported by Gerhard.

@Gerhard:
Thank you for that very detailed report. I gave up too early, but on the other hand, I don't really think, that I should bother pitching only to certain values like 13,5 cents, because when using pitch shifting I'm only concerned to produce the most precise pitch. In my case you could rightfully argue though, that 1,5 cent difference would not make a audible difference to 99,9% of the public. But thanks again for finding this temporary workarounds.

Regards
B.

benoit
Posts: 516
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2002 23:51
Location: Bern, CH
Contact:

Postby benoit » Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:20

hello there,

I'd really like to participate to this discussion, as I do use the mpx-algo quite a lot.
I'll see if it would make sense to move this thread to the beta-forum for a while.

benoit
hochschule der künste bern
musik & medienkunst / studioleitung
www.hkb.bfh.ch

aomahana
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Location: auckland. new zealand
Contact:

Postby aomahana » Mon Oct 11, 2004 21:06

Hello there,

Recently, I was interested in trying mpx2 for a recording which may have benefited from a tempo change. However, there was no demo version available, as far as I knew, and the price was too significant to purchase it on faith alone. Other algo's I had tried gave results similar to those mentioned in these other correspondences, (e.g. Audition). If Nova feel they have a superior product that justifies the price, a demo would certainly make for more sales.

neuronaut
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Location: Mainz, Germany
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Re: Pitch shift with Prosoniq MPEX2 - use with care

Postby neuronaut » Mon Oct 11, 2004 21:17

Hi all,

I was referred to this forum by our support staff so I thought I'd stop by to add my 2 cents worth wrt problem described here. After all, this forum looks very familiar to the one at Prosoniq... :-)

Gerhard wrote:In short, the results seem not very pleasant. For most of its normal settings, MPEX2 produces more or less audible, rather heavy distortions.

Well, if the distortion is really heavy there must be a problem with the setup or implementation - all our libraries are tested before they are distributed to our partners (Merging, in this case). If they would indeed produced heavy distortion they would not have left our company.

Here are some rules of thumb to check to make sure you've configured the process correctly:

- when processing sine-like signals (as you have mentioned you did to test the software), use the single instrument mode, not the polyphonic algorithm. That is quite sensible, since a single, musically monophonic tone like a sine does hardly qualify as a composite music signal (which is what the polyphonic setting is for).

- make sure you disable the formant correction for anything other than voice, or entire mixes containing voice. Pitch shifting a sinusoid tone with formants locked in place will produce side-tones (modulation), because a sine is like a "singularity" in frequency. You would need a very resonant cavity to model this as a formant, which implies a lot of precision and parametrization issues. Like a single pulse (broadband with equal energy at every frequency) a single sinusoid is an extremely special case for anything that tries to model formants. For a sinusoid, shifting its "formant" would (ideally) result in total elimination of the tone at the cost of amplifying noise and distortion products (caused by the sine generation) at the original frequency. This is nothing you would want, so turn off formant correction in this case.

I hope this helps for now.

Kind regards,
--smb

Bernhard Guettler
Posts: 885
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Location: Berlin, Germany

Postby Bernhard Guettler » Tue Oct 19, 2004 13:35

Hi,
so could we all agreee, that the artifacts are only introduced, when pitching coherent multitrack material, including two track stereo? Thats what I read out of Gerhards and my 'research'
Regards
B.

neuronaut
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Location: Mainz, Germany
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Postby neuronaut » Tue Oct 19, 2004 14:00

Hi again,

with Gerhard's help we've been able to reproduce the problem and it looks like it's indeed a property of the polyphonic mode in MPEX2 in conjunction with very small pitch shift ratios for signals that have few or no upper harmonics. It does not occur with rich harmonic sounds and does not affect the quality of the time stretch in general for the usual range of signals and pitch shift ratios. Also, the reported aliasing problem has already been fixed in the latest incarnation of MPEX which will be distributed to our partners shortly (scheduled release is November 1st).

For the type of signals Gerhard used to test the plug in you would generally use another MPEX mode specialized on musically monophonic signals so you wouldn't notice the effect. Unfortunately, after checking with Gerhard and looking at the plug in it appears that this mode isn't accessible from Merging's Plug in user interface so you can't select it in the Pyramix environment.

We'll be working closely with the Pyramix engineers to see that the full range of MPEX options will be made available in a future version and we'll also see to it that they get access to the latest incarnation of the MPEX technology as soon as it is made available.

Regards,
--smb

simon kiln
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Joined: Fri May 17, 2002 08:23
Location: UK

Postby simon kiln » Wed Oct 20, 2004 16:38

The fact that artefacts are produced at all in varispeed mode seems a little odd as I would have thought this was a straightforward sample rate convert function.
simon

neuronaut
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Location: Mainz, Germany
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Postby neuronaut » Wed Oct 20, 2004 20:24

Well, bugs can be odd at times... ;-)

--smb

tim lofts
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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:34
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Time stretch/compresion

Postby tim lofts » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:53

Hi there

I've been using this plug in on straight voice recordings mainly to get a second or so off of short recordings for commercials and trailers. I haven't gone thoroughly in to testing it, but it just doesn't work as well as I'd hoped. You do get strange artefacts when going more than a a couple of percent faster, and I have had better results when using other systems before I was a Pyramix user (audiofile, protools, Synclavier) albeit they took longer to get results. I have mentioned this a couple of time to Paul Mortimer at Merging, and would be more than happy to send examples for evaluation.

I have found however, that rather than doing one big ratio time compress, to do it in stages, although this is a bit tiresome!

In words of one of my old school teachers "could do better".

Tim Lofts

neuronaut
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Postby neuronaut » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:55

From what I know they're working on a new version that addresses all these issues...

--smb