PC config / turnkey components

[Paulo M]

Hi Mario,

thanks for taking the time for sharing your views and join the conversation.

First of all, let me tell you that I have nothing against Horus as Merging primary interface for Pyramix and Mykerinos replacement. Quite on the contrary, in fact I´m working as a system integrator for a new recording studio here in Portugal that ordered 7 Horus units to work as main converters for not only Pyramix, but also for PT, Nuendo and Logic Daws. They will be networked via Ravenna and will be the heart of all audio networking in the various studio rooms. Neither I have anything against Ravenna, as a connection protocol for Pyramix Masscore via the specified network card or other apps, including Pyramix Native that want to use the Horus via ASIO or Core Audio drivers (when they become available) using the motherboard built in ethernet port.

So yes, it´s in fact more practical to connect your hardware via a simple CAT5/6 cable, than to install PCIe audio interface cards or rely on USB/Firewire external audio cards.

Having said that, let´s talk about latencies then. It´s a fact that Masscore has a lower latency that a Native system. I have experience on that, worked on a studio before where all my colleagues using other Native Daws were really jealous of Pyramix Masscore when tracking, due to the low latency. But (and there is always a but on these things) that all changed when the tracking sessions involved having VST plugins inserted on tracks when tracking.
Then, Masscore´s low latency doesn´t work anymore, as VST´s are not processed in the Masscore engine, so it becomes like a normal Native app in what regards latencies. And so you can say, well, use VS3 instead while tracking. They are processed in Masscore. The reason that it´s not practical, (at least for me) is that the vast majority of all VST´s including the more popular ones for tracking and music production are not available in VS3 format. I think that we all agree on that.

And here lies my first criticism regarding Masscore, it´s very good for large track counts or when using VS3, but as soon as VST enter the equation, there goes your smile...

And because Pyramix is not a mass market Daw like for instance PT is, you don´t get manufacturers to port their plugins to VS3 either. Sad but true.
Look what just recently is happening with most major plugin manufacturers, writting code to AAX. Do they bother writting to VS3? No!

But curiously, an option had been envisaged by Merging to address that, and it was then called VS4L. Never heard of it? Read about it here on the second half of the page:

http://www.merging.com/products/show?product=1&page=54

Did this come to life after all these years, since Masscore was launched? No! Not even some sort of VS3 wrapper for VST either. And that was a big mistake, in my humble opinion.

Not to mention that Striptools and Bustools look old and boring. They never had a revamp, neither in the code or in the GUI. In that respect, I envy the new PT strip tools ported from Euphonix.
What about reverb options? Aphro VB? That´s it? ....

So know let´s talk hardware, Horus, Ravenna and user options.

Horus is a great product. It connects via ethernet to your Pyramix Masscore PC and with the ASIO and Core Audio drivers on the way, Native users of Pyramix and other Native Daws will be covered too. And you even have an exchange program for your old Mykerinos cards. Cool. All covered for the Horus here.

But what happens when it comes for people that presently use Mykerinos to interface to other brands external converters? Will they dump their Appogees, DAD´s, Prism´s, Mytek´s, Lavry´s etc. in the bin, just for the sake of Horus? I don´t think so. So, they will keep using Mykerinos until is supported by Merging or Pyramix versions and only then will choose. And then they will probably switch for other Daw that allows them to keep using their converters, that´s also a possibility.

Ravenna is competing amongst other ethernet audio protocols. It´s success depends on it´s adoption by a large number of influential manufacturers. A close look at the present supporters, don´t show an evidence of wide support of converter manufacturers, it´s mainly broadcast oriented ones that fill the list. Maybe that will change with time, I don´t know. But in what concerns manufacturers of PCIe card interfaces, I have my serious doubts that they will go this route in the future.

So, yes, like you say, it would be a wise move that Merging could come up with some sort of lower cost Ravenna interfaces, so that people that want to keep their existing converters could do so. For example Ravenna to AES, Ravenna to MADI, Ravenna to ADAT. That could make Merging enter the interface market and give Ravenna a push for every Native Daw users, allow them to use their existing converters and getting rid of PCIe, USB or firewire. And of course, a lower cost, less channels hybrid analogue/AES version of the Horus.

So in fact, introducing a range of Ravenna interfaces that would work as true external Mykerinos replacements for the future, either with Horus or not, for Pyramix or not.

As a Masscore user, I´m dependant on that, as exchanging my Mykerinos for an Horus is not a feasable proposition as I already have a Sphynx2. Also, being Masscore, even if other interface manufacturers like Direct Out come up with Ravenna interfaces, I won´t be able to use them.

So and to finalize, unfortunetely for me, yes, I trully regret I went the Mykerinos/ Masscore route, either because of the VST issues or the lack of options in the near future regarding conversion. But maybe others have better luck or have the finantial means to address this issues. For me, Mykerinos are here to stay until Merging or OS allows. Then, who knows....

[Mario]

Hi Paulo,

as you said, to track with VST plugins is the end of the low latency road, sadly there is no workaround for that, besides not using them in the recording moment (I know some people need them). The same happen with the SSL MX4 mixer card: if you place in the chain a VST plugging, there goes the low latency path.

VS4L sounded like the dream solution, but as you said, until today, there is no plugging ported to this platform. and for the VS3, only Flux offers VS3 plugins (working up to DXD): I am really curious about the IRCAM reverb, sounds nice (in paper). This is the bigger criticism anybody can do to Merging regarding Masscore (we can understand is not an easy job).

A VST wrapper could be a nice solution if it is addressed the low latency problem.

Direct Out interfaces are out of my interest because they don´t do DSD/DXD. In my humble opinion, Merging next move shall be to develop Horus subsets, like taking the analog in and out card and make an 8 analog I/O to ravenna, also a MADI to Ravenna module (a saver for the Sphinx2 users) and, as you said, the AES/EBU to Ravenna module and pleeeease a Headphone to Ravenna interface.

I understand your decision to wait what Merging brings to the table for the future, in your case I will do the same. We will keep our eyes open.

regards

[tas]

interesting posts on this topic. so at the moment is there no actual option to get the horus as an interface only? I.e. Madi to ravenna with no preamps or converters in it and keeping the cost low.

and is an ethernet based protocol really so much stable than pci?

[Graemme]

interesting posts on this topic. so at the moment is there no actual option to get the horus as an interface only? I.e. Madi to ravenna with no preamps or converters in it and keeping the cost low.

The basic Horus unit is a 'Ravenna to AES and MADI' interface. Analogue I/O is optional (except for the built-in headphone jack.)

and is an ethernet based protocol really so much stable than pci?

Perhaps not so much a question of stability but availability: In the near future, all computers will still have network access, but it seems fewer and fewer have PCI and PCIe slots. In much the same way that AES3ID allowed the use of AES / EBU audio on an existing 75-ohm coax infrastructure, Ravenna / Ethernet allows even greater flexibility running on ubiquitous CAT6e data networks.

gb

[Paulo M]

Graemme, even in it´s "basic" digital only version with no analogue I/O conversion and mic preamps, the Horus unit may be a costly solution for those that already use other converters and want to go the Ravenna route, replacing the Mykerinos cards.

Having a touch screen and the 24 AES as standard increases cost. Obviously is fantastic for those that want the complete solution and extensive I/O, but like I said, maybe not everybody needs that.

So, still think that in the future, basic Horus derived interfaces could be available. Basically a direct replacement for most popular Mykerinos/daughterboard combos.

Maybe the smaller range could adopt the name RA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra )

Examples:

1- RA MADI

1U Rack unit
No touch screen (all routing and config via browser and MT Discovery)
Ravenna Port In (back plate)
Ravenna Port Out (back plate, for connection to other Ravenna devices without the need of a switcher)
MADI In ( back plate coax and optical)
MADI Out (back plate coax and optical)
Word Clock in (back plate)
Word Clock Out (back plate)
Headphones 1 (Jack 1/4 on front panel with volume knob)
Headphones 2 (Jack 1/4 on back plate, software level controlled, ideal for external headphones distribution and talkback via Pyramix Monitor panel)
Analogue Stereo Out (Jack 1/4 on back plate, with up to 192 Khz conversion)
USB 2.0 (for MIDI I/O)


RA AES

1U Rack unit
No touch screen (all routing and config via browser and MT Discovery)
Ravenna Port In (back plate)
Ravenna Port Out (back plate, for connection to other Ravenna devices without the need of a switcher)
AES In and AES Out ( back plate, 24 channels I/O on 3 DB25 Tascam digital pinout)
Word Clock in (back plate)
Word Clock Out (back plate)
Headphones 1 (Jack 1/4 on front panel with volume knob)
Headphones 2 (Jack 1/4 on back plate, software level controlled, ideal for external headphones distribution and talkback via Pyramix Monitor panel)
Analogue Stereo Out (Jack 1/4 on back plate, with up to 192 Khz conversion)
USB 2.0 (for MIDI I/O)


RA DUAL

1U Rack unit
No touch screen (all routing and config via browser and MT Discovery)
Ravenna Port In (back plate)
Ravenna Port Out (back plate, for connection to other Ravenna devices without the need of a switcher)
AES In and AES Out ( back plate, 8 channels I/O on 1 DB25 Tascam digital pinout)
Analogue In and Analogue Out (back plate, 8 channels I/O on 2 DB25 Tascam pinout)
Word Clock in (back plate)
Word Clock Out (back plate)
Headphones 1 (Jack 1/4 on front panel with volume knob)
Headphones 2 (Jack 1/4 on back plate, software level controlled, ideal for external headphones distribution and talkback via Pyramix Monitor panel)
Analogue Stereo Out (Jack 1/4 on back plate, with up to 192 Khz conversion)
USB 2.0 (for MIDI I/O)

[Bernhard Guettler]

Hi,

I was wondering if there are any plans on upgrading the PC config page anytime soon?

I'm currently working on two different systems:
A) turnkey spec. i5-2400 computer (on DQ67SW) running on Windows 7 32bit with Mykerinos/Masscore (at the mastering studio i work)
B) i7-2600 computer running on an Asus board on Windows 7 64bit with Pyramix Native. (my tracking/mixing computer)

While computer A is used for mastering only and machine B for tracking and mixing, the difference is night and day between the two computers.
Machine B (i7) is rock solid, while machine A has the white freeze screen etc.. Machine A also struggles with running CPU heavy plugins.

Why does Merging spec. a desktop computer (as i5's are not workstation CPU's) as a turnkey system and are there any plans on releasing an updated turnkey component list?
Any updates on 64bit Mykerinos/Masscore support?

Best,
Morgan

There is something wrong with that particular i5 computer. I have a comparable system and never white freeze screens etc. Also I have not yet run out of CPU power even with a lot of CPU hungry plugins.
You should contact Merging and inquire about your particular configuration. Also go through the checklist in the support forum.
Cheers - B.

[tas]

Hey Paulo,
I like your marketing ideas.
I can speak for myself as an example. My short plans were to change my existing interface/converters, for other high quality (non merging ones). For an interface I was looking at the new Rme Madifx one that has also AES and midi and some analog IO. Now if a RA product could come at a similar pricerange, along with those zero latency vs3 plugs that you mentioned, then that would be a no-brainer for me

[Graemme]

I don't recall defending the Horus as either cheap, inexpensive or appropriate for anyone in particular...

Graemme, even in it´s "basic" digital only version with no analogue I/O conversion and mic preamps, the Horus unit may be a costly solution for those that already use other converters and want to go the Ravenna route, replacing the Mykerinos cards.

[Paulo M]

tas wrote:
interesting posts on this topic. so at the moment is there no actual option to get the horus as an interface only? I.e. Madi to ravenna with no preamps or converters in it and keeping the cost low.

The basic Horus unit is a 'Ravenna to AES and MADI' interface. Analogue I/O is optional (except for the built-in headphone jack.)

I didn´t say that Graemme, just taking your comments following Tas post, about keeping the cost low. Anyway, it all depends about what one´s opinion of "low" is.

Also, AES to and from MADI, can be considered a conversion, or maybe digital transcoding is the best term, independent of Ravenna also being able to see the I/O streaming on thos ports.

[MorganN]

There is something wrong with that particular i5 computer. I have a comparable system and never white freeze screens etc. Also I have not yet run out of CPU power even with a lot of CPU hungry plugins.
You should contact Merging and inquire about your particular configuration. Also go through the checklist in the support forum.
Cheers - B.

Hi Bernhard,

Can you specify which CPU hungry plugins?
Flux Elixir and Algorithmix splitcomp at 96k drain CPU in PMX like crazy.
VSTs in general seem to need more CPU running in Pyramix compared to other DAWs like Sequoia and Nuendo.
Btw. white screens happen when mixer reloads (adding/removing plugs, doing mixdowns), not during playback/record.

The i5 computer is built with the components specified.
In addtion, pretty "safe" components have been used. (Crucial ram, Intel SSD system drive..)
No other conflicting devices in there.
In any condition, I find it strange to specify an i5 processor for a workstation.

It would be interesting to know if Merging will make 64bit drivers for the Myk cards as a regular I/O card like the RME or Lynx AES cards.
No processing, just I/O.

Best,
Morgan

[Paulo M]

White screens happen in Masscore, beacuse of Masscore´s inherent way of working. Sad but true. A detail that has apparently not been taken into consideration. That and the fact that it can´t handle VST plugins, make it one of the biggest flops of performance claims on the Merging side. Sorry for my honesty!

[Thomas Grubb]

Hi Morgan,

Sorry to hear of your troubles...it's never much fun when these things don't work Do you have hyper-threading turned on on your system? I've just been doing some testing of a new (i7-X58) system and found, especially with power-hungry plugins like those from Algorithmix, that it's better to have it turned off. Seems that the system uses the first real core and VSTs start using the first virtual core which was overloading. With it turned off hyper-threading it used around 40% of the core (Algorithmix Orange with all bands active, oversampling and 96kHz). Might be worth experimenting with...

Cheers,
Tom

[Bernhard Guettler]

There is something wrong with that particular i5 computer. I have a comparable system and never white freeze screens etc. Also I have not yet run out of CPU power even with a lot of CPU hungry plugins.
You should contact Merging and inquire about your particular configuration. Also go through the checklist in the support forum.
Cheers - B.

Hi Bernhard,

Can you specify which CPU hungry plugins?
Flux Elixir and Algorithmix splitcomp at 96k drain CPU in PMX like crazy.
VSTs in general seem to need more CPU running in Pyramix compared to other DAWs like Sequoia and Nuendo.
Btw. white screens happen when mixer reloads (adding/removing plugs, doing mixdowns), not during playback/record.

The i5 computer is built with the components specified.
In addtion, pretty "safe" components have been used. (Crucial ram, Intel SSD system drive..)
No other conflicting devices in there.
In any condition, I find it strange to specify an i5 processor for a workstation.

It would be interesting to know if Merging will make 64bit drivers for the Myk cards as a regular I/O card like the RME or Lynx AES cards.
No processing, just I/O.

Best,
Morgan

Hi Morgan,
the main difference between i5 and i7 is Hyperthreading IIRC. Since Masscore Pyramix should be run with hyperthreading off, there is not much advantage of using an i7 over an i5.
Maybe related to your problem, maybe not: In the past I found one of the biggest influences on the system performance comes from the graphic subsystem. Do you use the onboard graphic subsystem?
Cheers - B.

[MorganN]

Thanks for all the helpful hints, guys!

Tom; it's actually the first computer in ages I can't figure out why is acting slow.
Thought we were done with the "how to optimize your windows xp" days.
I'll pay BIOS a visit later today. Thanks for the tip!

Bernhard; the i5 computer is running onboard graphics while the i7 is running a Nvidia Quadro 4000.
i5 running masscore and i7 running native. no issues with native running i7 with hyperthreading.

Will keep you posted!

Best,
Morgan

[Mario]

Hi Morgan,

The native system has no problems with the Nvidia video card or the hyperthreading setting, but Mascore (think of it as an Operative System) has problems with Hyperthreading and Nvidia chipsets video cards.

One of the good reasons to have an I5 for a masscore system is that there is no way that accidentally it can ave the hyperthreading turn on

regards