Playback problems...

[Raphael Mouterde]

Well this is driving me nuts!
I'm editing 15 tracks of 96kHz/24 bit audio and it would play fine until Pyramix, or Windows or whatever decides to add clicks everywhere.
Every 5 mins I'd say, it all becomes clicky and if I wait a bit then it kind of goes back to normal. :-/

I'm only running Pyramix.
I've tried level 1, 2, 3, 4 of the playback buffer
I've changed the buffer settings in the vs3 control panel
I can see some playback stalls on the debug>Playback Statistics window but all the other clicks don't show.

The density of the clicks is not depending (it seems) of these buffer changes.
I'm reading off a LaCie drive using FW400.
I run Windows XP SP3 on my macbook Pro with 2GB of RAM.

Any ideas anyone ?

[phaseboy]

Hey Raphael,

You didn't mention what sort of interface you're using. I have experienced a similar problem - but only using DirectSound Playback through the computer soundcard. Using ASIO4all, or an external asio box I have not had this problem.

So on the offchance that you're using directsound playback I would get asio4all - if you're already using asio then I have nothing helpful to say

Best,

Mark

[fl]

Run DSP Latency Checker

http://www.thesycon.de/eng/free_download.shtml

to see if the clicks correspond with instances of high DPC activity. If that is the case, then you should probably consider some of the optimizations outlined in this forum post:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3765

A possible candidate - if you haven't disabled it already - is the Apple Keyboard Manager, which has different names depending on the version of Boot Camp you are using: KBDMGR.EXE under Boot Camp 2; BOOTCAMP.EXE under Boot Camp 3. Disable that in the Task Manager to see if it results in a lower DPC level with the Latency Checker, and with that, having the clicks go away. You might also want to look any any other inessential processes (wireless networking comes to mind) that may be safely disabled while you are busy with a Pyramix session.

Is there an opportunity for you to run your hard drive on the FW800 bus? Try daisy chaining your equipment with your audio interface on the end, then your hard drive, then the computer - all on the FW800 connection and see if this makes any difference.

If you still have issues, then you'll have to do some detective work to see what process is periodically taking over the CPU resulting in the clicking. There is a lot of discussion about this problem over on the RME forum, for the Fireface series of interfaces, but there is a lot of good information about optimizing Windows for audio. Look for posts by Timur for some good information about methods and programs to use.

[Raphael Mouterde]

Hey Mark,

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately ASIO4ALL doesn't do 96k. But I'll keep it in mind in case I encounter more problems with future projects.

And thanks to Frank too for your great post. I love that little DSP Latency utility.
I had some red bars every minute or so which were due to (unfortunately) the wireless connection. It's disabled now.
After a couple of hours I still had some clicks which I think now are due to some kind of memory/CPU relationship.
I took the number of undos from 32 to 16 and it cured the problem for a while. Unfortunately, with my Core Duo I've reached my 2GB capacity already.
Clicks are still back from time to time but it is much better than it was. Still hunting for the process that might cause these clicks to happen though.

Would you know a utillity that would do the same as DSP Checker but with the memory, showing spikes of memory use per process ?

[phaseboy]

Hey Mark,
Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately ASIO4ALL doesn't do 96k. But I'll keep it in mind in case I encounter more problems with future projects.

Glad to hear you've managed some improvements so far. ASIO4ALL does in fact work at 96kHz - the limitation is in the pc's sound card not asio4all itself. Most pc soundcards work up to 192 these days.

Best
Mark

[fl]

Unfortunately ASIO4ALL doesn't do 96k. But I'll keep it in mind in case I encounter more problems with future projects.

ASIO4ALL will play back 96k - the limitation comes from the onboard RealTek hardware's input max. If you disable all RealTek Inputs in the ASIO4ALL setup page, leaving the Playback active, you will then be able to play higher sample rate material. See my post on this here: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=6696

Clicks are still back from time to time but it is much better than it was. Still hunting for the process that might cause these clicks to happen though.

Would you know a utillity that would do the same as DSP Checker but with the memory, showing spikes of memory use per process ?

I looked again in the RME forum for Timur's recent post under the "Running Fireface under Boot Camp" thread (or whatever it's called) - I could have sworn that I read in a recent post of his that he mentioned just such a utility, that will identify the DPC hog or hogs. Maybe try looking there, or you might try contacting him directly - he's very nice about answering questions like this.

Rereading your first post, I see you are running a MacBook Pro - which version? My late 2007 model (pre-unibody) is version 3.1 of the MBP line. I can run 24 tracks of 96 kHz. 24 bit audio through my Fireface 800 with no clicks, although I have found I do need to max out my Fireface Latency in the Fireface Settings application. I did find that the version of the NVDIA graphics driver had an effect on Pyramix, so depending on what graphics engine you have in your machine, a change of either the whole driver version, or else some tweaking of the settings (turn Power Management to "Not Manage my Power Settings" in the NVDIA Power Mizer control panel). Just to complicate matters, I found that the most recent versions of the NVDIA driver caused a BSOD whenever I exited Pyramix, but reverting to an earlier version, fixed that problem. Basically, you should try to get the driver that comes with the Boot Camp 3 or 3.1 install program.

Under XP, the NVDIA graphics engine will operate all the time in its highest acceleration (high power 3D mode, I think it's called). You can use RivaTuner (a free program) to force this to operate at Low Power 3D mode, which reduces it's draw on system resources and also has the benefit of having the machine run cooler. If you're running Vista or Windows 7 the NVDIA driver behaves differently, in that it will change performance mode dynamically, with a huge DPC spike whenever that happens. Again, use RivaTuner to force it into a single, low power mode to avoid these problems.

Have you disabled the AHCI Compliant Battery Monitor in the device manager? That's another common source of latency clicks. You will no longer be able to monitor your battery charge, but if you use your machine, as I do, attached to AC most of the time, then this isn't an issue. The MacBook Pro will charge the battery and stop charging when it's "full" even with this thing turned off, so no worries there.

Finally, in the Task Manager (Control - Alt. - Delete) under Applications or Processes, have you tried killing the KBDMGR.EXE process (if you have Boot Camp 2 or 2.1 installed) or BOOTCAMP.EXE (if you have Boot Camp 3 or 3.1 installed)? Boot Camp 3 is supposed to have dealt with the keyboard polling issue that caused huge DPC spikes every 15 seconds under version 2, but it might be worth a try.

[Raphael Mouterde]

Hey hey, I found how to get ASIO4ALL up to 96kHz and beyond.
My Macbook Pro as got IDT High Definition and somewhere in that control panel you can enable IDT to do 96kHz.
Haven't tried it yet on my project but I will soon. Same with the BOOTCAMP.EXE business.

RivaTuner looks like a really nice bit of software but my display adapter is Radeon X1600. It looks like RivaTuner works on Nvidia and Radeon 8500 series.
So instead within the Display Properties/Settings/advanced/troubleshoot (which is also where you can turn off the "write combining", I lowered the hardware acceleration from full to two levels down. Not sure it did much good, certainly not enough to cure the problem.
Can't see any AHCI Compliant Battery Monitor anywhere on my system.

It looks more and more like memory issue here and I might ask Timur if he's got any idea. From time to time, Windows just seems to hijack the memory. Annoying.

PS: working on Pyramix I actually got the Blue Screen of Death relating to memory dumping. It was so bad I couldn't actually boot from Windows or Mac ! Nothing. Gray screen. (there are no smilies to describe my state of horror). I can't believe my luck though : a week ago I changed my 80GB internal hard drive for a 320GB drive and decided to keep the old one in a Firewire disk enclosure. Luckily bootcamp allowed me to boot from the 80GB hardrive and after 5 or 6 restarts, it kind of healed itself and I was able to boot from the internal hard drive again. Love macs!

[fl]

Can't see any AHCI Compliant Battery Monitor anywhere on my system.

It should be right there with all the other device drivers in your Device Manager (right click on My Computer and select "Manage" and then when the Computer Management window opens, select Device Manager from the list on the left side. Then, on the right side look for Batteries - open that and look for Microsoft ACPI Compliant Control Method Battery - right click on that and Disable it). I betcha anything that once you find and disable this driver, your DPC problems will go away.

But just to be on the safe side, while you've got the Device Manager open, disable the Apple IR Receiver under Human Interface Devices, USB Video Device under Imaging Devices, 1394 Net Adaptor and Atheros AR5008 Wireless Network Adaptor (and its Packet Scheduler Miniport) under Network Adaptors, and unless you're using ASIO4ALL and wish to use the internal hardware, disable the Realtek High Definition Audio under Sound, Video and Game Controllers. You can always turn it back on when you want to use ASIO4ALL and the internal hardware, but as long as you are using an ASIO interface like your Fireface, be on the safe side and disable this potential source of conflict. Finally, under System devices, disable the Apple built in iSight camera.

It looks more and more like memory issue here and I might ask Timur if he's got any idea. From time to time, Windows just seems to hijack the memory. Annoying.

Go to the Start Menu -> Control Panels -> System. In the window that opens, select the Advanced tab. Click on the Settings button under Performance. In the window that opens, click on the Advanced tab. Processor Scheduling should be set to Background Services (I believe this is a requirement of Pyramix). Memory Usage should be set to Programs. Under Virtual Memory, click on Change and in the window that opens, select the radio button for Custom Size and enter a number in both fields that is equal to 1.5 times the amount of ram in your machine. For example, in my MacBook Pro with 2 Gb of ram, I have 3045 entered in both of those fields (Initial and Maximum size). Click on Set, and then click on OK on all the open windows to back out of there. Your machine will probably indicate that you should restart. Do that and see if your memory issues continue.

PS: working on Pyramix I actually got the Blue Screen of Death relating to memory dumping.

I had quite a few issues with BSODs with earlier versions of Pyramix 6.0 - memory dump "out of range" type errors that would cause an immediate shutdown when quitting Pyramix, sometimes sooner. It turned out to be a conflict with the graphics driver I was using - reverting to an earlier version solved that problem. Since we have different hardware in our machines, you might want to try looking about for newer or earlier drivers for your graphics to see if it solves this issue or not.

It was so bad I couldn't actually boot from Windows or Mac ! Nothing. Gray screen. (there are no smilies to describe my state of horror). I can't believe my luck though : a week ago I changed my 80GB internal hard drive for a 320GB drive and decided to keep the old one in a Firewire disk enclosure. Luckily bootcamp allowed me to boot from the 80GB hardrive and after 5 or 6 restarts, it kind of healed itself and I was able to boot from the internal hard drive again. Love macs!

Sometimes a hardware reset can fix this - disconnect your machine from AC and remove the battery. Then hold the power-on button for ten seconds or so, then replace the battery and AC connection and fire 'er up. While you're at it you could also reset your P-Ram (hold Command-Option-P-R during boot up and let it restart a couple of times). This should comb out any tangles and allow you to re-boot into Windows properly.

[Raphael Mouterde]

Well it seems I've got it sorted for now.
What I didn't make clear I realize is the fact I'm using the IDT internal sound card of my MBP.
Coundn't get ASIO4ALL to give me any sound: the IDT would stay on "beyond logic"

I've only spent a few hours playing with settings and disabling things (the Microsoft ACPI Compliant Control Method Battery, Apple iSight, Apple IR receiver, 1394 Net Adaptor) and Bootcamp.exe in the task manager and the wireless under networks.
But the real trick it seems was to play with the virtual memory settings.

Go to the Start Menu -> Control Panels -> System. In the window that opens, select the Advanced tab. Click on the Settings button under Performance. In the window that opens, click on the Advanced tab. Processor Scheduling should be set to Background Services (I believe this is a requirement of Pyramix). Memory Usage should be set to Programs. Under Virtual Memory, click on Change and in the window that opens, select the radio button for Custom Size and enter a number in both fields that is equal to 1.5 times the amount of ram in your machine. For example, in my MacBook Pro with 2 Gb of ram, I have 3045 entered in both of those fields (Initial and Maximum size). Click on Set, and then click on OK on all the open windows to back out of there. Your machine will probably indicate that you should restart. Do that and see if your memory issues continue.

But Processor Scheduling set on Background Services made it worse.
In fact the radio button should be set on Programs.
Under XP SP3, the Processor Scheduling window reads: "Adjust for best performance of: ". Select Programs.

I'll be 100% certain it works after spending a full day on this project. Fingers crossed.

Thanks for all your help!