"S" monitoring in Monitor window?

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fl
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"S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby fl » Thu Feb 11, 2010 01:32

When monitoring a stereo bus in the Monitor window, you have the options to listen to either the "Main" (stereo) or "Mono" output. Since mono is the result of adding both Left and Right signals together, in phase (L + R or "M"), would it be possible to include the option to monitor the result of adding the Left and the polarity inverted Right signal (L - R or "S")?
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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby Graemme » Thu Feb 11, 2010 08:43

Such a great idea...I'd also find this very useful.

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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby tim » Thu Feb 11, 2010 23:29

Is the "mono output" option in the Monitor Window something new in 6.1? I don't think I ever saw this in 6.0 (which I'm currently still on).

Thanks,

Tim
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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby fl » Thu Feb 11, 2010 23:44

Tim,

It's kinda hidden - in the upper middle part of the Monitor window, there are two pairs of entry spaces with "<<" and ">>" on either side of them. Clicking on the arrows cycles you through the available selections. (Note that I am NOT talking about the left side of the window, where you activate the various busses with the red/orange button, but rather in the middle area, near the top of the window above where you select the various outputs/speakers for solo/phase inversion.)

The selectors on the left cycle through the available busses in your mixer. The ones on the right is where you can switch between monitoring your Stereo or Surround busses, and the entry below that - when you are monitoring Stereo - allows you to switch between "Main", "Mono" and "Near" (secondary monitors) outputs. In Stereo, selecting "Mono" sums to mono and plays back through both left and right speakers. When in Surround, selecting mono sums everything to mono and plays it back through the Centre speaker. Of course, these are the defaults - you can make up your own custom output patches with your choice of levels of everything for downmixing, etc.

As far as I can remember, it's always been like this.

Now that I've had a chance to think about it, having a "Mono" and a "ø" button (phase invert the Right channel and then sum Left and Right together), right on a Stereo Bus in the mixer would be even handier than having to do all the stuff with the Monitor window. Failing a dedicated button or buttons, perhaps something could be added to both the stereo and surround bus strips that would allow you to cycle through the same options as are currently available in the Monitor window (Main, Mono and Near on the Stereo bus; Main, Stereo, Mono and Near in the Surround Bus). Back when I was in school we had a mixing console that had these kinds of controls right above the main mix fader - very handy when mixing to hear what things sound like in mono, and also to hear what's getting lost in mono (i.e., the S signal).
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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby tim » Fri Feb 12, 2010 01:02

Thanks, Frank.

Tim
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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby Graemme » Fri Feb 12, 2010 07:58

I want it in the monitor window...not where it could really f(&#$ things up in the mixer's main outputs. If I want to print a stereo mix as a M/S pair, I can just put a M/S plug-in on the bus in question and only when I need to.

Graemme
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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby fl » Fri Feb 12, 2010 17:17

Graemme wrote:I want it in the monitor window...


Ah, yes - good point. However it would be nice to have the more basic monitoring controls integrated into the mixer - that would only affect monitoring - just for the convenience, as opposed to having to open and close yet another window. I feel this especially when I'm running a location session with a greater number of input channels/strips on my laptop - screen real estate is a precious commodity.

I'm thinking that all the controls contained in the Monitor Window could conceivably be incorporated into something the size of a mixer strip, which could reside on the far right side of any mixer. Yes, it's nice, in the current Monitor window, to see the speaker layout in graphic form when you're soloing individual outputs, etc., but all in all, this arrangement is a little inefficient.

When I create a new Stereo project with the Mixer Wizard, it usually comes up with the primary Stereo Bus already connected to analog outputs 1 and 2, thereby bypassing the need to even activate the Monitor window unless soloing, phase inverting and/or talkback are required. A lot of the time, I run my session like this, only activating the Monitor (first disabling the Stereo Bus output assignments) if I have a specific need. This is a little cumbersome, although I can see the logic of separating the functions of Mixing and Monitoring from a safety standpoint.

So I guess my wish list just got a little longer: Full "Main" monitoring (stereo, surround or multi-channel), Mono/Downmix summing, "S" component monitoring (I'm a little fuzzy on how this could apply to a surround mix - perhaps inverting the left and right surround channels and then combining with the left and right fronts for a listen for what might be canceled in a Stereo downmix, but this is easily another discussion), and individual monitor channel solo/phase inversion controls consolidated into a mixer strip sized area placed right in the mixer.

Talkback controls could conceivably reside in a second mixer-strip sized element, that could be made available as required. Then put all the configuration stuff that currently lives in the Monitor into another area of the Mixer configuration - and suddenly, a separate, screen hogging Monitor window becomes superfluous.

Yes, this would be a major overhaul - and for now, I'd be happy with an "S" signal monitoring option for stereo wherever it gets placed...
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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby Graemme » Fri Feb 12, 2010 21:28

Respectfully, I completely disagree. What is the point of having a monitor window, then?

"Having to open another window" is the best (and easiest) thing. The mixer window is cluttered enough already. Now, if the monitor window could be docked (optionally) with the mixer window (e.g. inside or beside) then I might vote for that.

Graemme
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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby fl » Sat Feb 13, 2010 01:14

Graemme wrote:Respectfully, I completely disagree. What is the point of having a monitor window, then?


Kinda my point - get rid of the extra window.

Graemme wrote:Now, if the monitor window could be docked (optionally) with the mixer window (e.g. inside or beside) then I might vote for that.


I could too, something like the (already present) expandable mixer display sections controlled by the little x boxes on the right side.
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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby Graemme » Sun Feb 14, 2010 08:58

fl wrote:
Graemme wrote:Respectfully, I completely disagree. What is the point of having a monitor window, then?


Kinda my point - get rid of the extra window.

Graemme wrote:Now, if the monitor window could be docked (optionally) with the mixer window (e.g. inside or beside) then I might vote for that.


I could too, something like the (already present) expandable mixer display sections controlled by the little x boxes on the right side.


Less clutter = 'better' to me. If that means two windows (easily toggled with key shortcuts) then that's fine. Those little drop-down menus on the mixer drive me crazy...there should be key-equivalents for those things, to avoid having to mouse-work them. If anything, those drop-downs are more likely to cause a problem (slipping and clicking somewhere unintended) than the existing monitor window 'inconvenience' incurs, IMNSHO.

Graemme
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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby fl » Thu Feb 25, 2010 02:28

To bring this thread back on topic, I've found a free VST plug-in that enables channel selection, summing to mono, and individual channel polarity inversion (before mono summing), for playback, so it fits the bill, more or less...

http://www.nugenaudio.com/download_coun ... question=1
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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby fl » Fri Aug 06, 2010 21:26

A free alternative to the above (as the Nu-Gen plug-in tends to be a bit of a processor hog) is the Brainworx plug-in "bx_solo" available here:
http://www.brainworx-music.de

This little VST plug-in gives me what I originally was asking for - a quick, easy way to solo just the M or the S components of a stereo mix. It also lets you solo the L or the R and provides a way of using M/S shuffling to widen or narrow the stereo image, with a single knob.

Very useful, and you can't argue with the price.
Frank Lockwood, Toronto, ON, Canada
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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby Perfect Record » Tue Aug 10, 2010 20:53

I don't use the monitor window, but on other multi window apps, I find that I always want to get my fingers on a level control or mute button FAST!

I'd never argue with having a small mute button or level control mirrored on all the main windows.

Mute fast? This morning I went to say hi to my son. While he was at the computer, he bumped on the power switch of a guitar amp, with the guitar leaning over the speaker. Now that was loud! I had to laugh at his mad scramble to turn the amp off.

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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby Carl Schuurbiers » Thu Oct 21, 2010 20:44

Another suggestion: What about making a "plugin slot" in the monitoring section, just like channels and busses have. One could setup one's favorite set of metering plugins (like phase scope, loudness meter, PPM meter etc.) independent of the current mixer configuration.

Carl.
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Re: "S" monitoring in Monitor window?

Postby Johan_Wadsten » Mon Nov 15, 2010 23:24

Hi guys

back to the initial question of being able to do an L-R Mono sum. It is currently possible in Pyramix's monitor section.

in the monitor main window, it is possible to reverse polarity of any of the speaker outputs by choosing "phase" below the speaker buttons and then selecting the speaker who's polarity you would like to reverse. then once it is reversed, make the mono choice in Downmix.

does this solve the issue at hand?

as for creating a plugin section to the monitoring, it is an interesting idea.
cheers
Johan