Motherboard Frustration !!

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jon@classicsounduk
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Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby jon@classicsounduk » Thu Apr 28, 2016 20:25

Classic Sound UK is a high end user frequently working on large Muti-track DSD & PCM Projects for recording , editing mixing & mastering.

We have 2 x Masscore 256 systems and numerous Native systems.

PCs are often spread around various locations and we have put the RTX64 key on a dongle to enable us to use it on numerous computers… but we need to build some more Masscore PCs

We have patiently been waiting for many months for Merging recommended motherboards to change.

Within PC Specifications on the website there is virtually only one recommendation for both Masscore and Native Systems.

GigaByte Z97X-UD3H

This board has been discontinued for a considerable time and is simply just not available now!!!! Well certainly in the UK

Surely there must be other compatible motherboards. Is it an RTX64 issue?

Any suggestions? :roll:

klaukholm
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Re: Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby klaukholm » Thu Apr 28, 2016 21:52

I sent you a PM.

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mpdonahue
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Re: Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby mpdonahue » Fri Apr 29, 2016 02:32

I feel your pain, I end up doing most of the research about systems to build because the Merging systems are typically 2 years out of date.
The real question here is is this a location system or a post -production system?
For road systems, I've had great luck with the i7-5775C on z97 motherboards. I built the Gigabyte DS3H Mobo a couple of years ago, It is a good board, but out of production. I'd look at the more recent offerings from Asus and Asrock. The 5775C is a real special chip for Masscore users. It is the only chip that we've found to work reliably with Masscore using integrated video. I can record 40 channels of DSD256 with a pair of surround mix groups and 2 stereo aux and one each stereo and surround mix bus. My masscore numbers in this setup are around 40% with no spikes. The only caveat is that you need to find a motherboard that is recent enough to have the 5775C compatible with the BIOS. This allows you to put the system in smaller cases that makes it more portable. I would stay away from silent cases. We've not found a system for Masscore that really works well without some kind of active cooling. Configuration is paramount to getting the most out of these systems.
For post-production systems, I would look toward the Asus X99 motherboards with the i7-5820k or 5930k depending on how many PCIe lanes you need. If you are running big video or need a bunch of lanes for peripherals, then the 5930k is the way to go. Otherwise they are similar in performance. Here the AMD Firepro is the gold standard in video. We run the Firepro 2460 cards here. they are only use 20w so they don't heat up the case. (the 145w processor does a good job of that. )
Finally, when PMX v10.1 hits the street, it will include RTX64 2014 sp2 with support for Skylake processors. Obviously I haven't gone there yet, but it will be interesting to see if the video works with Masscore.
All the best,
-mark
*********************
Mark Donahue
Soundmirror, Inc.
Boston, MA
mark@soundmirror.com
www.soundmirror.com
*********************

conan_tran
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Re: Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby conan_tran » Sun May 01, 2016 03:03

jon@classicsounduk wrote:Classic Sound UK is a high end user frequently working on large Muti-track DSD & PCM Projects for recording , editing mixing & mastering.

We have 2 x Masscore 256 systems and numerous Native systems.

PCs are often spread around various locations and we have put the RTX64 key on a dongle to enable us to use it on numerous computers… but we need to build some more Masscore PCs

We have patiently been waiting for many months for Merging recommended motherboards to change.

Within PC Specifications on the website there is virtually only one recommendation for both Masscore and Native Systems.

GigaByte Z97X-UD3H

This board has been discontinued for a considerable time and is simply just not available now!!!! Well certainly in the UK

Surely there must be other compatible motherboards. Is it an RTX64 issue?

Any suggestions? :roll:



Hello this is Conan from ATT Audio Controls here in Sydney.
Just an update that Merging has certified the following mainboards.
Full ATX - Gigabyte GA-Z170X-UD3
Micro ATX- ASUS Z170M-PLUS

For more information, please contact Merging Support.
R.E.D Studios | Recording Australia's Music Industry.

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mpdonahue
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Re: Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby mpdonahue » Sun May 01, 2016 03:54

Hello this is Conan from ATT Audio Controls here in Sydney.
Just an update that Merging has certified the following mainboards.
Full ATX - Gigabyte GA-Z170X-UD3
Micro ATX- ASUS Z170M-PLUS
For more information, please contact Merging Support.

But it is my understanding that these Skylake motherboards will not work until PMX v10.1 hits the streets.....(You need RTX64 2014 SP2) 10.1 is on Beta now, but release is probably a bit down the road.
Also, I'd be wary of the HD graphics (Even though it is much improved) with large multi-track DSD/DXD production.
All the best,
-mark
*********************

Mark Donahue

Soundmirror, Inc.

Boston, MA

mark@soundmirror.com

www.soundmirror.com

*********************


jon@classicsounduk
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Re: Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby jon@classicsounduk » Sun May 01, 2016 12:01

Mark

Many thanks for your help here especially regarding the i7 5775C and i75930k processors. This may save me a lot of time if I go down the Asus MB route.

Over the years I have spent many an hour tweaking Bios, and various other settings in order to improve performance and compatability issues.

I totally agree, the and Firepro 2460 is excellent especially with its low wattage !

Also thanks Conan, but as Mark says I think we have to wait for Pmx 10.1 / Skylake compatibility and RTX 64 before we can hopefully enjoy the benefits !

I think it might be worth the wait ?? Anyone know the e.t.a. of 10.1 ??

Just for info, for any non mass core users interested. On-the-road location recording & post production for over a year now, I have had this mini itx system up and running Pyramix v9.1:

GA Z97N Mini itx motherboard
i7 4790 4Ghz
16GB Ram

It comes with on board graphics, 2 x GB Lan (one for horus and one for Eucon !) 6GB sata connectors etc. Work's like a dream, very quick and with a few WD Black 2.5 inch drives in a very small Lian Li case very compact. Not sure if it's luck, but never had an issue with it even large 24bit 96k recording and editing & mixing !

Best

Jon

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mpdonahue
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Re: Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby mpdonahue » Sun May 01, 2016 16:00

Jon,
10.1 is in Beta, but only the development team can tell you the plan for release. So far for me, it is really stable, but they need the group of different users to really beat it up to find the bugs.
WRT Skylake, Until I'm 100% positive that the graphics will not affect Masscore, I won't go near it. I've been burned by too many systems at this point. Until someone from the factory tells me that I can run the HD Graphics with large masscore DSD/DXD projects, I won't waste the money to build it. The 5775C uses Iris Pro graphics rather than the HD graphics. I'm pretty sure that this is the reason it works. I've been requesting that the factory qualify some real workstation setups for years. For some reason they seem resistant to this and only want to qualify desktop boards.
The real thing to think about with the 5775C is that with onboard graphics, you can use the miniITX mobo for a Masscore system. All you need to do is get a miniITX case with a slot. (I tend to avoid the cases that use ribbon cable PCIe adapters or riser cards in favor of cases where the card plugs right into the board. As always, YMMV.)
Finally, until Merging gets the ASIO buffer thing under control in v10, I'd suggest staying on v9.1 for your native acquisition systems. Post systems are a different animal.
All the best,
-mark
*********************

Mark Donahue

Soundmirror, Inc.

Boston, MA

mark@soundmirror.com

www.soundmirror.com

*********************

jon@classicsounduk
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Re: Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby jon@classicsounduk » Sun May 01, 2016 16:44

Mark,

Excellent… it sounds as if I'm sorted.

The 5575C will allow me to achieve a long time goal of mine …. to get a mass core acquisition system in a miniITX case!

Also have always been very nervous using new release software straight out on recording sessions….. just too risky nowadays.

Agreed, rather go straight into the slot on PCIe for the Ravenna network card.

Might need to get the saw and file out to adapt a case but it will be worth it.

Happy to keep the 'big beast' mass core system back at base for the post.

Many thanks for your help.

Best

Jon

conan_tran
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Re: Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby conan_tran » Mon May 02, 2016 02:24

Hello contributors.

For best compatibility and to avoid deviation in custom built computers, as we all know how flexible the PC industry can be, and sometimes we also deviate and build something to cater towards our convenience. I would most recommend either purchasing option A) Merging's Silent Turnkey PC, B) ATT's Rackmountable Pyramix PC, or C) Follow Merging's recommended certified components for your own build.

If one was to deviate and starts to use an entirely different chipset, or deviate from size of the certified mainboards, please note that there will be limited support that can be provided by Merging and via ATT.

Regards

Conan Tran
R.E.D Studios | Recording Australia's Music Industry.

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mpdonahue
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Re: Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby mpdonahue » Mon May 02, 2016 04:23

I'm sorry, but this is not the least bit helpful. The original poster is looking for a system to do large multitrack DSD/DXD masscore production. To be honest, the merging silent PC will not do this work. Period. It is plagued by Masscore overs and limited track counts due to the use of Intel integrated HD video. These systems work fine for the average user doing 96k PCM production, but the Multitrack DSD/DXD user, they will not work. Ask me how i know.
Also, have you tested your system with 40 tracks of DSD256 in a production environment? 48 tracks of DXD? Do you get Masscore overs at random intervals or when you zoom graphics? High track count DSD DXD is really a very different animal and not for the faint of heart.
Not to point out the obvious, you are in Australia, I am in the US and the original poster is in the UK.Neither of us is going to buy a computer from half way around the world. Suggesting that if we don't buy one of your systems or a merging system we won't get support sounds a bit like a strong arm tactic and really is not appropriate in this conversation.
As far as PC support, this is non existent to the high end user in the merging support world. I have 11 Masscore systems used on 16 computers to manage here and if I waited for Merging to tell me what to buy or build, my work would grind to a halt.
Finally, the fact that there hasn't been a workstation quality system on the supported list for the last 6 years still amazes me.
As always, YMMV.
All the best,
-mark


conan_tran wrote:Hello contributors.

For best compatibility and to avoid deviation in custom built computers, as we all know how flexible the PC industry can be, and sometimes we also deviate and build something to cater towards our convenience. I would most recommend either purchasing option A) Merging's Silent Turnkey PC, B) ATT's Rackmountable Pyramix PC, or C) Follow Merging's recommended certified components for your own build.

If one was to deviate and starts to use an entirely different chipset, or deviate from size of the certified mainboards, please note that there will be limited support that can be provided by Merging and via ATT.

Regards

Conan Tran
*********************

Mark Donahue

Soundmirror, Inc.

Boston, MA

mark@soundmirror.com

www.soundmirror.com

*********************

conan_tran
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Re: Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby conan_tran » Mon May 02, 2016 10:40

mpdonahue wrote:I'm sorry, but this is not the least bit helpful. The original poster is looking for a system to do large multitrack DSD/DXD masscore production. To be honest, the merging silent PC will not do this work. Period. It is plagued by Masscore overs and limited track counts due to the use of Intel integrated HD video. These systems work fine for the average user doing 96k PCM production, but the Multitrack DSD/DXD user, they will not work. Ask me how i know.
Also, have you tested your system with 40 tracks of DSD256 in a production environment? 48 tracks of DXD? Do you get Masscore overs at random intervals or when you zoom graphics? High track count DSD DXD is really a very different animal and not for the faint of heart.
Not to point out the obvious, you are in Australia, I am in the US and the original poster is in the UK.Neither of us is going to buy a computer from half way around the world. Suggesting that if we don't buy one of your systems or a merging system we won't get support sounds a bit like a strong arm tactic and really is not appropriate in this conversation.
As far as PC support, this is non existent to the high end user in the merging support world. I have 11 Masscore systems used on 16 computers to manage here and if I waited for Merging to tell me what to buy or build, my work would grind to a halt.
Finally, the fact that there hasn't been a workstation quality system on the supported list for the last 6 years still amazes me.
As always, YMMV.
All the best,
-mark


Hi Mark, I understand your frustration.
If you are getting MassCore overs, there are many factors that can cause this. A combination of hardware and software can be a cause, or just simply user error.
To minimise disruption of MassCore Overs (MassCore peaks) here is what you can do and perform system optimisations recommended in the Pyramix V10 Installation Guide on Chapter 5 onwards.
http://www.merging.com/uploads/assets/I ... 0Guide.pdf
After optimisations, and you have followed the Mainboard Installations guides, have the recommended BIOS revision installed etc.
If all else fails, I suggest running a Belarc report (http://www.belarc.com/Programs/advisorinstaller.exe) and forward your enquiry to Merging Support for a resolution.
R.E.D Studios | Recording Australia's Music Industry.

jon@classicsounduk
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Re: Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby jon@classicsounduk » Mon May 02, 2016 18:19

Hi Conan,

We seem to have gone full circle here…. the very fact that I was wanting to use Merging Recommended motherboards was the reason for my original post!

There is only one motherboard currently recommended for masscore systems ! it is discontinued and no longer available.

For those of us recording high track count DSD projects , I for one, do not want to return to the days when on session you felt that the PC was on the verge of going into cardiac arrest with mass core overs and crash. It's not pleasant, i can assure you.

I started work in this industry working for Decca Record Company London. At that time they had a good reputation for quality and sound excellence. I was working initially alongside guys who had a massive amount of knowledge and experience. They were not arrogant, but always striving for improvement and sonic excellence. There were numerous stories of when Decca bought Studer A80 analogue machines and Neumann Cutting lathes. After delivery but before they were used, they would be taken apart and tweaked and modified for optimal performance. They were not critical of Studer or Neumann, but with their additional knowledge they wanted something better.

I certainly realise that times have changed, but with the arrival of Ravenna networks it is very easy to hang another workstation off the network in order to soak test on recording.

With no available recommended motherboards from merging, a little of the Old Decca pioneering spirit, and the knowledge of a forum like this, I welcome Mark's suggestions. There is always a risk versus reward element here (just like there was on the golf course this morning!) It may not be for everyone , and you need to understand the inner working of PCs, but it if works, it keeps us in business and its very rewarding.

I have good clients requesting high track count DSD recordings. I need the flexibility of more mass core PCs. I already have a suitable non-recomended motherboard so for the cost of a CPU at £275 UK GBP or $350 US it's a no-brainer for me.

Best

Jon

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allemano bernard@neuf.fr
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Re: Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby allemano bernard@neuf.fr » Mon May 02, 2016 18:35

pyramix 10 Native; windows 10 64 Bits; Asrock Z 270 PRO 4; intel core i7 7700 4.20 GHz; 16G DDR4;
1 X M2 Nvme for system; 1 X SSD for medias; 1 WD Caviar Black 1T. for backups.

jon@classicsounduk
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Re: Motherboard Frustration !!

Postby jon@classicsounduk » Mon May 02, 2016 20:05

Thanks Bernard,

The first 2 options have to come from the USA ! Time & Import tax !

The 3rd option clearly says… unless my french is 'tres tres mal' we cannot send to UK !!!

This motherboard is out of date.

Best

Jon