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Who cares if you have 3D Audio?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 14:57
by Julian Gough
This is a recent comment lifted from another thread, rather than hijack that thread, I've started a new one.

How many users are actually going to use this wonderful new panning system?

It is obviously aimed at the film world and an increasing number of cinemas are dolby atmos capable. I am sure there are some users who will find this useful, but I for one, took one look at the headline feature of version 10 knowing that I would never use it.

There has been some improvements in the mixer, possibly as a byproduct of the 3D panning system, but they still have not implemented the top of my wish list, which is non destructive solo, and pre fade listen. I use the mixer to create a monitor mix for live video recording. When I started that way of working over 3 years ago, using a internal mixer was probably quite unusual, but it is now quite a common as the power of the mixers DAWs have increased.

The other major feature for version 10 is video on the timeline. Yes I can see this being useful for video post production, but anyone in that game would already have an integrated video player such as vCube essentials, so can you say this is a new feature?

I try not to be too critical of Merging, they are not a large company but they are in a market that have become dominated by Avid's Pro Tools. Also they probably see their future success coming from the hardware market, perhaps I should be thankful that they are still supporting and developing Pyramix.

Julian

Re: Who cares if you have 3D Audio?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 15:37
by fl
I suppose it's only natural that some long time Pyramix users are going to start feeling like fans of a cult band with a break-through hit, who come to feel invaded by "all these new people" hijacking our closely held, and very special secret.

Merging, in order to survive in the long term, has to do more than preach to the converted - it has to expand its market, and the largest, most viable market is not audio for music production (more's the pity), but audio for film and video post-production. After all, films are a form of media that the public is still willing to pay for.

I'm just happy that the "legacy" mixer buses are still there, and that my old projects still open. I like having M/S strips, and Sub-Groups that require no further patching to wind up in the Mix bus, and for the time being, I still have them. However, just today I received an invitation to submit a quote on a film soundtrack, so perhaps it's time for me to reassess my business aims, and grow with the trend.

Also, isn't the Merging Cellar a better forum for this discussion? We're kinda off topic here...

Re: Who cares if you have 3D Audio?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 17:00
by Julian Gough
fl wrote:.... isn't the Merging Cellar a better forum for this discussion? We're kinda off topic here...


Possibly but way I see it is that I made a comment about Pyramix in the "Pyramix General" forum. The Merging Cellar is for everything else.

Re: Who cares if you have 3D Audio?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 17:10
by klaukholm
It is immensely useful for a lot of Ovation clients which is an important and growing market for Merging. Here in town, the Royal Opera has no less than six Ovation systems and almost all the big themeparks have one or more Ovation systems that are in constant use. Disney and Universal themeparks are running a large number of Ovation systems as do many other major themeparks. As you probably know, Pyramix is an integral part of Ovation.
Keep in mind that not everybody uses Pyramix and Ovation the way you do.

Re: Who cares if you have 3D Audio?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 17:16
by Julian Gough
klaukholm wrote:Keep in mind that not everybody uses Pyramix and Ovation the way you do.


Indeed, which is why I asked the question. I would like to know what people do with Pyramix and Ovation, and why Merging felt it necessary to put a lot of resources developing the 3D audio panning system.

Julian

Re: Who cares if you have 3D Audio?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 17:23
by klaukholm
Why not look at it the other way. Now that you have 3d panning, consider how powerful it is for sound installations and scenografies that call for playback that envelops the audience and dances around in the soundfield.

Re: Who cares if you have 3D Audio?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 18:09
by Julian Gough
klaukholm wrote:Why not look at it the other way. Now that you have 3d panning, consider how powerful it is for sound installations and scenografies that call for playback that envelops the audience and dances around in the soundfield.


You make a very good point, and its an application that I hadn't fully appreciated. Ovation has its own mixer (identical to Pyramix). The new 3D panning along with the existing live mixer automation feature is an incredibly powerful combination. I have a carry in Ovation Native rig for broadcast work, I only wish I'm allowed to more than play the closing music :(

I'm sorry, I've sort of dominated this thread, I will let others get a word in.

Julian

Re: Who cares if you have 3D Audio?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 21:39
by allemano bernard@neuf.fr
Hi, All,

It would be great, to add a binaural option included in the Bus output. Now, I use the Flux :: HEar, it works well. But a similar output option would be a most.

Best regards,

bernard

Re: Who cares if you have 3D Audio?

Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 13:13
by DJS
I am sure Ovation is an interesting product for the big houses. But I hope Merging don't forget the little guys who use PMX every day for editing and mastering. I hope they repair some long standing bugs and basic missing feature requests soon. Featuritis is taking over the tech world.

Re: Who cares if you have 3D Audio?

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 15:10
by AW_Snowflake
But I hope Merging don't forget the little guys who use PMX every day for editing and mastering


Maybe someone has an answer here or shares my opinion.

I am missing the Multiple Mono Buss (8, 16, 24,...track) previously present in all the former versions. (My experience goes back to Pyramix 3 or 4).
Maybe someone knows how to obtain this function with the mixer and Wizzard in Pyramix 10. For most of our daily needs, a simple mixer Pyramix "Classic" with stereo and multiple mono useage and nothing colourful would be an advantage.

No doubt the new features are very useful for some purposes, but we have all seen flashy redesign of successful software which often allienates existing customers.

Regards,

Andrew

Re: Who cares if you have 3D Audio?

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 16:14
by klaukholm
You still have this function in V10. Johan has a few videos up and the manual covers it fairly well IMO.

Re: Who cares if you have 3D Audio?

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 20:28
by fl
AW_Snowflake wrote:I am missing the Multiple Mono Buss (8, 16, 24,...track) previously present in all the former versions.


Multiple Mono Buses are still available, but they are included in those now called "Legacy" Bus types. Thankfully, it's not that difficult to switch a project that was created under the new V.10 architecture to the old "Legacy" mode - just remove the existing bus (right-click on the Mixer Bus > Bus > Remove whatever you named of bus), and then right-click on the mixer again > Bus > Add > Legacy > make your selection of the type - perhaps to the "Mono Mix" type you were asking about. You should probably go through to make sure that all your existing Strips are properly routed to the new Bus, and that all your panning is correct.

Most of the work I've done in Version 10 so far is projects that were started in Version 9 or earlier, so when I open an old project, or create a new one with a Template that I created in an earlier version, I get my trusty old Mixer with the "Legacy" Bus type(s) already installed. I believe it's possible to continue working with Version 10 and never ever see any of the new Mixer Bus types and their Panning options, blissfully continuing to use the old Strips and Sub-Groups and yes, Multiple Mono output Buses. However, unless you've already created some Templates, or are opening Projects that were begun in Version 9 or earlier, and are using the "New Project" and "Mixer Creation Wizard" options, you'll have to do the fussing described above, to get things into "Legacy" condition.

Keep in mind that the choice of Bus type - Legacy or Version 10 type - determines which types of Strips you can use. M/S Strips can't be used with V.10 Buses. Neither can SubGroups. Older projects or Templates that contained either of these will still open with the Legacy Bus type already, so most of the time, you can just continue as if you were using Version 9.

A quick way to check whether a Bus in one of your mixers is of the Legacy type or not, is to right-click on it, and see whether the option to "Convert to the General Mixing Bus Model" is offered. If it is, the bus is a Legacy type. Don't use that command unless you really want to convert your mixer, with the knowledge that any M/S strips that were installed will be automatically converted to L/R type, and that any SubGroups will simply not be connected to any output. To regain M/S control, install the VS3 plugin: M/S Encoder on the affected Strip. To replace the SubGroup, install an Aux. Group and set its output to feed your main Mix Bus.

I believe that running a mixer with a combination of Legacy and V. 10 Buses in it at the same time, is asking for trouble.

Maybe someone knows how to obtain this function with the mixer and Wizard in Pyramix 10. For most of our daily needs, a simple mixer Pyramix "Classic" with stereo and multiple mono usage and nothing colourful would be an advantage.


I'd suggest that you create Templates of some of your common set-ups, then never use the Project Menu > New command, or the Mixer creation "Wizard" unless absolutely necessary.

Re: Who cares if you have 3D Audio?

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 21:26
by klaukholm
While you can do this with a legacy strip, I suggest exploring the new structure. Once I wrapped my head around it and got used to the new mixer, I find it quite useful.
As is typical with Pyramix there are several ways to achieve the same thing.