Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Welcome to the Pyramix MassCore discussion forum.
Forum rules
The Merging Technologies team cannot be held responsible for support queries logged on the public forums. If a support query is logged here and only here, it may not be found and dealt with by the appropriate team.
To ensure that your support issue or bug report is dealt with properly and in good time, please use the link to the tech support request form page on the Merging website.
Make sure to let us know what version you are using when you send your mail. THANKS!
User avatar
johndsadams
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 06:46
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Contact:

Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Postby johndsadams » Wed Sep 09, 2015 21:49

Hi,

One always looks forward to new software updates to give use end users a more powerful tool to do our jobs.

In anticipation of v10 I contacted my dealer here in Canada about how much this will potentially cost me. I own v9 and my ASM contract expired April 2014.

According to the dealer, I either have to buy TWO (2) ASM contracts for a cost of over a thousand dollars Canadian or by one (1) ASM contract and an upgrade for about 50% more than the aforementioned.

I think this is crazy and can't think of the logic in the whole idea of buying a year contract that I don't even use! Am I being punished somehow by Merging?

Anyone else as frustrated as I am on this confusing upgrade mechanism Merging has in place?

Sincerely,
-John
John D.S. Adams
Stonehouse Sound
http://www.stonehousesound.com

User avatar
johndsadams
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 06:46
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Contact:

Re: Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Postby johndsadams » Wed Sep 09, 2015 21:57

Just found this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11219

Which is a discussion on my very issue.
John D.S. Adams
Stonehouse Sound
http://www.stonehousesound.com

User avatar
mpdonahue
Posts: 442
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 03:20
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Postby mpdonahue » Thu Sep 10, 2015 17:02

johndsadams wrote:According to the dealer, I either have to buy TWO (2) ASM contracts for a cost of over a thousand dollars Canadian or by one (1) ASM contract and an upgrade for about 50% more than the aforementioned.
I think this is crazy and can't think of the logic in the whole idea of buying a year contract that I don't even use! Am I being punished somehow by Merging?
Anyone else as frustrated as I am on this confusing upgrade mechanism Merging has in place?
Sincerely,
-John

John,
I look at it this way, If this was a piece of hardware and a new upgraded version came out, would you expect the manufacturer to automatically give you the new version? The answer is no. Would you expect them to upgrade your unit for free? Again the answer is no. There is no reason you can't use the current version ad infinitum.
Software is no different. It takes time and money to create these new versions and the company needs to charge money for this.
The policy is very simple:
    1) You can pay a yearly maintenance fee and get all the new versions as they come out.
      For the maintenance system to work you need to pay it every year. It's just like car insurance, you buy it even if you don't use it, just in case.
      Also, with the ASM you get all the new features that are included when buying the new version. Contrary to popular belief, this is actually the most cost effective way to stay up to date on the current software. I've got 11 Masscore systems to maintain here and I've analyzed every way to save a couple of bucks on this process. Given the frequency of updates (Generally, Pyramix versions generally run on a 15-18 month cycle) the ASM is the best deal. In your case you are actually getting covered for an additional 6 months with the ASM. Also, given the new features and structure of software options in v10 it will be well worth your money to go this route.
      One other thing you get with ASM is access to factory support.
    2) You can buy a version to version upgrade.
      If you only have to go one step this can be the cheapest way to go, but if you need to go from v8 to v10 it is cheaper to buy the ASM + upgrade option. I actually upgraded a system from v5 to v9 using this and in that case it was a bargain.
      The caveat here is that you don't get the new features that are included in the new version, just the keys you already own and access to the new version. I still needed to get a couple of upgrades to make it whole, but still it was Waaaay cheaper than buying a new seat. (The software was 6 years out of ASM...)

    3) You can buy the new Seat of the software.
      This is pretty self explanatory.
Just some food for thought.
All the best,
-mark
*********************
Mark Donahue
Soundmirror, Inc.
Boston, MA
mark@soundmirror.com
www.soundmirror.com
*********************

User avatar
johndsadams
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 06:46
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Contact:

Re: Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Postby johndsadams » Thu Sep 10, 2015 17:45

I appreciate your food for thought, Mark. Thanks.

I suppose there are differing opinions in this matter which is fine.

I'm not trying to get something for nothing, and I fully understand the fact that Merging needs cash flow in order to continue doing what they do. I sincerely want them to keep making great software and hardware and I have been paying them over the years to keep up to date (I love my HORUS).

Given your insurance comparison, I chose not to take the insurance for a year. When I'm ready to jump in it again I don't expect to pay insurance for the year I went without. Like a piece of gear, software should come with some sort of support even if it is time limited (like Apple Care I suppose).

My dealer didn't give me the option of just buying the upgrade (when it's released from v9-v10). It was either buy one ASM and and upgrade or buy 2 ASM taking me to May 2016 (no free 6 months of ASM for me!).

What I'm seeing here is a system that is strataling 2 different methods: subscription and outright purchasing. Perhaps what Merging will end up doing is moving entirely to a subscription based system. It might just simplify it for us end users.
-John
John D.S. Adams
Stonehouse Sound
http://www.stonehousesound.com

User avatar
mpdonahue
Posts: 442
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 03:20
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Postby mpdonahue » Thu Sep 10, 2015 20:43

johndsadams wrote:I appreciate your food for thought, Mark. Thanks.

I suppose there are differing opinions in this matter which is fine.

I'm not trying to get something for nothing, and I fully understand the fact that Merging needs cash flow in order to continue doing what they do. I sincerely want them to keep making great software and hardware and I have been paying them over the years to keep up to date (I love my HORUS).

Given your insurance comparison, I chose not to take the insurance for a year. When I'm ready to jump in it again I don't expect to pay insurance for the year I went without. Like a piece of gear, software should come with some sort of support even if it is time limited (like Apple Care I suppose).

My dealer didn't give me the option of just buying the upgrade (when it's released from v9-v10). It was either buy one ASM and and upgrade or buy 2 ASM taking me to May 2016 (no free 6 months of ASM for me!).

What I'm seeing here is a system that is straddling 2 different methods: subscription and outright purchasing. Perhaps what Merging will end up doing is moving entirely to a subscription based system. It might just simplify it for us end users.
-John

John,
One or two quick comments.
The whole thing about ASM is is that it is designed just like Applecare. Once your Applecare has lapsed, you can't jump back on when you have a problem. That is the only way subscription maintenance can work. Otherwise everybody would sign up for maintenance only when they need the upgrade. If you only buy it when you need it, the system doesn't work.
WRT support, have you tried to call Avid lately? A Single Incident Support for HD is $80.
The upgrade only is available, and if you really wanted to pursue it I suspect they'll do it for you. However, I would suggest you wait and take a look at the new v10 included features upgrades before you discount the ASM option. There are big changes in the works and for Masscore users there are substantial expansions to the feature set and included plugins. I would suggest that this version jump is as big as the jump from v5 to v6 Masscore....
As always, YMMV.
All the best,
-mark
*********************

Mark Donahue

Soundmirror, Inc.

Boston, MA

mark@soundmirror.com

www.soundmirror.com

*********************

User avatar
Paulo M
Posts: 1444
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 16:19
Location: Portugal

Re: Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Postby Paulo M » Tue Sep 15, 2015 00:38

In general I´m not in favour of annual maintenance payments. Call it the fancy name you want: ASM, Apple Care, AVID support, whatever, it´s just a means of subsidising in advance, features that in the end may or not fulfill your expectations or needs.
So, if companies want to keep their user base intact and attract new clients, they have to invest on it and prove they are on the right path, providing solutions that meet the market needs they address.

So, in brief:

1-We as a company have a new version that is mostly fixes, (other than new features) to a previous version that users payed already to work fine and it didn´t? : FREE

2-We indeed, introduced great new features and development, would you like to upgrade and take advantage? : PAY
Best regards,

Paulo M

Pyramix 7.1 Masscore
VCube XE 3.1
MB5 Dual & X50 MADI
Win XP SP3
Intel Q9600/Gigabyte X48 DS5 Motherboard/ASUS 4350 Graphic card

User avatar
Graemme
Posts: 2215
Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 22:18
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Contact:

Re: Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Postby Graemme » Tue Sep 15, 2015 03:56

Paulo,

One person's 'great feature' is another's 'I don't want to pay for that!'

There is no simple answer for all users. Neither does Merging have the deep pockets of an Avid or an Apple...

Graemme
Graemme Brown
Zen Mastering
1460 Wild Rose Drive
Gabriola Island, BC
Canada V0R 1X5
+1.604.874.9096

"A Horus, A Horus; My Kingdom for a Horus!"

DJS
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 05:26
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Postby DJS » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:58

I like the ASM model, but I have paid handsomely for a lot of options I never use. The only improvement I can see to Merging's current model is to offer fully segmented options with prices on each option. You tick the ones you want and pay the fee. Only those options get activated.
David Spearritt
Classical and Acoustic Music, BNE, Australia

User avatar
fl
Posts: 1323
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 19:55
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Postby fl » Tue Sep 15, 2015 15:54

David's "tick and pay" model is exactly how Pyramix is sold - there are many add-on features which have to be activated by a modification to your dongle/key. The issue with this comes when what was once an add-on becomes a standard feature in a later version, such as was the case when I paid close to $500 USD for the surround mixing feature in version 5, only to see it become a standard feature later on. Yes, I had the use of it in the interim, but still, had I but known....

At some point I'd like to get VCube Essential and Final Check, but how long will it be (if ever) before those features become standard? The debate I'm having with myself right now is whether I should continue with my ASM, since version 10 appears to have hardware requirements which exceed my aging computers, whereas version 9 works very well, and fulfills my customers' needs completely. At the same time, I recognize that I have a vested interest in doing my bit to keep Merging afloat.
Frank Lockwood, Toronto, ON, Canada
http://LockwoodARS.com
• Pyramix Native 11.1.6
• Mac Mini 6.2 (Quadcore i7) - Bootcamp 5.1.5621 - Win7 Pro SP1 64
• HP 7100 Mini-tower - Win10 Pro 64 1809
• RME Fireface 800 ASIO driver 3.125 or ASIO4All 2.13

User avatar
Paulo M
Posts: 1444
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 16:19
Location: Portugal

Re: Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Postby Paulo M » Tue Sep 15, 2015 17:47

Graemme wrote:Paulo,

One person's 'great feature' is another's 'I don't want to pay for that!'

There is no simple answer for all users. Neither does Merging have the deep pockets of an Avid or an Apple...

Graemme


Graemme

I fully agree with you, no doubts that everybody has diferent needs and ideas about new features. I just don´t see ASM´s or other types of annual fees to be the only incentive for a given company´s efforts in developing better products or indeed to correct bugs on features that people already paid for. It may help them financially during the process, but the return to some customers may prove a bad investment.

Having said that, ASM´s and the like would be welcome, if in advance, companies could tell it´s potential ASM subscribers, the focus of their efforts for a given product. For instance, Cakewalk does that. Check the link bellow and click on Up Next. You´ll see their development targets. So you know what you´ll be paying for and make a better informed decision.

http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/ ... #Hopkinton

Another thing has to do with the frequency of updates. Instead of major upgrades every year or so, some companies like Cakewalk are offering continuous development and you get it free for the first 12 months after buying the product and you pay max 199 us dollars (top version) for another 12 months, if you like the development and new features being implemented.

Taking it to the extreme, you have Cockos´ Reaper, which taking into consideration it´s modest price compared to Pyramix and other DAW´s, offering lenghty time upgrades included on the original price. And when you check what it can do and the degree of sophistication and customisation it offers, you may start wondering about asking prices for other DAW´s products and maintenance fees. And I guess that Cockos has not deep pockets either.

All in all, I would much prefer if Merging could adopt a cloud subscription model. Start from a basic package and pay extras for what you use when needed.
Best regards,

Paulo M

Pyramix 7.1 Masscore
VCube XE 3.1
MB5 Dual & X50 MADI
Win XP SP3
Intel Q9600/Gigabyte X48 DS5 Motherboard/ASUS 4350 Graphic card

klaukholm
Posts: 504
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 00:36
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Postby klaukholm » Tue Sep 15, 2015 19:36

The main seling point of the ASM is support. Annual SUPPORT and maintenance.
On ASM you should have very good access to your dealer/distributor and by proxy the merging support team. On top of this you also get free upgrades.
This all costs less than purchasing upgrades if you intend to stay current and you get very different access to support than competitors like Avid. If you have a good distributor/dealer and you take advantage of this, I believe it is a very good value.

DJS
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 05:26
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Postby DJS » Wed Sep 16, 2015 23:05

fl wrote:David's "tick and pay" model is exactly how Pyramix is sold - there are many add-on features which have to be activated by a modification to your dongle/key.

But the individual features are grouped into packs. I had music pack and wanted to record DXD. I had to upgrade to the mastering pack with a lot of stuff that I just didn't need for that one feature I did need. I enquired about just getting the DXD key and it was almost the same price as the mastering pack.

I am not keen on the cloud idea. This firmly places unpredictable control with the company. I feel it would be perilous to rely on, despite what all the big software companies are saying about it.
David Spearritt
Classical and Acoustic Music, BNE, Australia

User avatar
Paulo M
Posts: 1444
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 16:19
Location: Portugal

Re: Anticipating an Upgrade to v10

Postby Paulo M » Thu Sep 17, 2015 00:22

I am not keen on the cloud idea. This firmly places unpredictable control with the company. I feel it would be perilous to rely on, despite what all the big software companies are saying about it.
David Spearritt
Classical and Acoustic Music, BNE, Australia


When I refered cloud, I did it purely on a licensing and purchase options platform. The software still gets installed on you computer. Having a splash screen with a net connection to buy addons is a nice way of doing business as well, instead of relying on local land distributors for software.

Also for me, the distinction between Masscore and Native mades no sense anymore, considering the increase in performance and power on the latest CPU´s and the fact that Merging doesn´t manufacture DSP platforms anymore. If Ravenna is the way, latency could only diferentiate in between having the Merging recommended network card or using the mobo ethernet port. A la rednet....

I would have only one Pyramix core software and then let users buy the options that they want, but not in packages.

So you could start with the core and then add, RTX for example, DXD/DSD if you needed and so on. A lot of the paid options nowadays don´t make sense anymore, as third party are doing better implementations at a lower price. Take DDP for example.

All in all, I think that Merging is doing much better on the hardware side than software. Their success with the Horus and Hapi is due to great thinking and product quality. On the Pyramix side, the approach to the business model needs some rethinking in my opinion.
Best regards,

Paulo M

Pyramix 7.1 Masscore
VCube XE 3.1
MB5 Dual & X50 MADI
Win XP SP3
Intel Q9600/Gigabyte X48 DS5 Motherboard/ASUS 4350 Graphic card