Redbook CD Track Names

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Rob
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Redbook CD Track Names

Postby Rob » Tue Mar 17, 2015 09:34

What is the magic to getting track names to work when creating a CD. I read both the Quick Start Guide and the User Manual for PMX 9 and followed directions as best I could interpret them. I searched this forum as well.

I'm only trying to fill in three fields per track: CDText Title, CDText Performer, and CDText Song Writer. No ISRC or other fields. All looks good.

When I go to Project->Generate CD Image and click the Edit button and select my tracks one by one I can see the info I filled in just fine. But when I burn a CD the tracks are just named 'Track 1' etc. What gives?

Also, is there a way to generate an .iso image so I can open that to check my work instead of burning discs?

It took me forever to figure out how to get 3 second gaps between tracks but I think I finally got that working.

Any clues appreciated!
- rob
Pyramix 10 Native Master on a MBP Retina Bootcamp partition running Windoze 7 64bit, Horus with 32 premo inputs and 8 premo outs and Hapi with new AKD8DP.

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fl
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Re: Redbook CD Track Names

Postby fl » Tue Mar 17, 2015 17:08

Many questions:

How are you checking the CD Text of your burned discs? Is it possible that that method is not capable of CD Text display? (Not all CD players display CD Text.)
Do you have a copy of the MTCDImage Player (available from Merging Support)? When you play your PMI with it, does it display the CD Text properly?
Is your burner capable of writing CD Text? (Okay, this might be stretching things, but older burners were not.)
Is it possible that you are naming the Tracks in the first column (Track Name) and not the CD Text Track Title column?
Have you tried publishing audio files as part of your output (either in addition to the PMI creation, or instead of)?
If you create meta-data capable files, do you find that they contain the correct Title, Performer and Song Writer tags?
By any chance, do you own a third party DDP creation application like Sonoris' DDP Creator? When you create a DDP folder from the PMI, does it contain a CD Text file?
Frank Lockwood, Toronto, ON, Canada
http://LockwoodARS.com
• Pyramix Native
• Mac Mini 6.2 (Quadcore i7) - Bootcamp 5.1.5621 - Win7 Pro SP1 64
• HP 7100 Mini-tower - Win10 Pro 64 1809
• RME Fireface 800 ASIO driver 3.125 or ASIO4All 2.13

Rob
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Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Redbook CD Track Names

Postby Rob » Tue Mar 17, 2015 18:59

fl wrote:Many questions:

How are you checking the CD Text of your burned discs? Is it possible that that method is not capable of CD Text display? (Not all CD players display CD Text.)


I am using Windows Media Player in W7 and iTunes under Mac OS X. I would think these apps would display track names but I could be wrong.

fl wrote:Do you have a copy of the MTCDImage Player (available from Merging Support)? When you play your PMI with it, does it display the CD Text properly?


If it is not part of the PMX Master package then no. I will ask Merging Support for this.

fl wrote:Is your burner capable of writing CD Text? (Okay, this might be stretching things, but older burners were not.)


??? I used a Pioneer BDR-XD05W.

fl wrote:Is it possible that you are naming the Tracks in the first column (Track Name) and not the CD Text Track Title column?


Nope. I filled in the CDText fields. If I request a text file of the CD Text in the CD/SACD Tab I get a txt file that looks perfect. If I click the Edit button in the DiscWrite utility I get the correct info in the Image Editor window.

fl wrote:Have you tried publishing audio files as part of your output (either in addition to the PMI creation, or instead of)?


??? No, have not tried.

fl wrote:If you create meta-data capable files, do you find that they contain the correct Title, Performer and Song Writer tags?


??? Have not tried.

fl wrote:When you create a DDP folder from the PMI, does it contain a CD Text file?


There is a CDTEXT.BIN file in the DDP folder.

fl wrote:By any chance, do you own a third party DDP creation application like Sonoris' DDP Creator?


I have an old copy of Waveburner (Mac) but I can't get it to authorize so I can use it. :(
I'm considering dropping $70 on HOFA CD-burner Standalone to put an end to my frustration.

Thanks for all of the tips Frank! You should be on the Merging Tech payroll with all the help you have donated to me and others on this board!
Last edited by Rob on Tue Mar 17, 2015 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
- rob
Pyramix 10 Native Master on a MBP Retina Bootcamp partition running Windoze 7 64bit, Horus with 32 premo inputs and 8 premo outs and Hapi with new AKD8DP.

Rob
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Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 22:34
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Redbook CD Track Names

Postby Rob » Tue Mar 17, 2015 19:54

OK, so I just read this bit from the HOFA CD-burn User Manual.

"When playing a CD in your computer, you should be aware, that not every software player will show CD-Text information. Often the title information is downloaded from the internet, which can be different from the information that is stored on the CD itself. Windows Media Player3 as well as Apple iTunes4 do not show any CD-Text information!"

So maybe there is no issue with PMX 9!
- rob
Pyramix 10 Native Master on a MBP Retina Bootcamp partition running Windoze 7 64bit, Horus with 32 premo inputs and 8 premo outs and Hapi with new AKD8DP.

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fl
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Re: Redbook CD Track Names

Postby fl » Tue Mar 17, 2015 20:01

Rob wrote:I am using Windows Media Player in W7 and iTunes under Mac OS X. I would think these apps would display track names but I could be wrong.


Both of those programs will look online to match the CD (no. of cuts, durations, etc.) to known title lists - so, no, they don't look for CD Text on the CD directly. (Ain't CDs a pain in the patoot?)

The HOFA software looks like a good prospect, with a friendlier price than the Sonaris program. However, the one winning feature of the Sonaris for me is its ability to directly import a PMI file created by Pyramix, and then spitting out a DDP folder - no muss, no fuss. Generally, when I'm at the DDP creation phase, I'm at the end of a lot of editing/mixing/mastering tasks, so I'm tired and grumpy, and this automatic feature is most welcome. Prior to Sonaris, I had been using Audiofile Engineering's Wave Editor which pressed my every nerve!

Rob wrote:
fl wrote:When you create a DDP folder from the PMI, does it contain a CD Text file?


There is a CDTEXT.BIN file in the DDP folder.


Then you should be good to go. Open it in a Text Editor like Notepad to make sure.

Just for fun, you could try "Publishing" a bunch of FLAC AAC or MP3 files in addition to, or instead of Generating a CD in the "Generate CD" window. (Loads of fun for young and old, no CD pressing costs, no burning/audio extraction error worries...) You can check whether the information you entered as CD text got used as the meta-data in those files by looking at them in foobar or in a Tag editor like MP3Tag.
Frank Lockwood, Toronto, ON, Canada
http://LockwoodARS.com
• Pyramix Native
• Mac Mini 6.2 (Quadcore i7) - Bootcamp 5.1.5621 - Win7 Pro SP1 64
• HP 7100 Mini-tower - Win10 Pro 64 1809
• RME Fireface 800 ASIO driver 3.125 or ASIO4All 2.13

Rob
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Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 22:34
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Redbook CD Track Names

Postby Rob » Tue Mar 17, 2015 20:06

Thanks again Frank! It looks like we posted at nearly the same time.

I will try your suggestions! All the best to you!
- rob
Pyramix 10 Native Master on a MBP Retina Bootcamp partition running Windoze 7 64bit, Horus with 32 premo inputs and 8 premo outs and Hapi with new AKD8DP.

Rob
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 22:34
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Redbook CD Track Names

Postby Rob » Tue Mar 17, 2015 20:36

I just received and installed MTCD Image Player. It proved that PMX 9 is doing the right thing with regard to CD TEXT Titles. This is a very useful app, they should include it as part of the Master Package IMHO. If I had this tool from the start this thread would not have been created and I would have saved hours of confusion.

Thanks again Frank!
- rob
Pyramix 10 Native Master on a MBP Retina Bootcamp partition running Windoze 7 64bit, Horus with 32 premo inputs and 8 premo outs and Hapi with new AKD8DP.

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Graemme
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Re: Redbook CD Track Names

Postby Graemme » Wed Mar 18, 2015 01:01

"CD-Text and Online CD databases: Ne'er the twain shall meet." (Well, not without some effort...)

Two simple things that you could have done:

1.) Import the DDPi back into Pyramix (look in the 'Project' menu under 'Import').

2.) Create a CD-R from your DDPi and import that into Pyramix. Use this same CD-R and import it into everything you own that reads CDs and determine which of these apps is accurate because it's a given that some won't be...(Just wait until you need to make a CD with multi-lingual text!)

There are all sorts of little roadblocks in the CD-Text world, like the use of ISO646 vs ISO 8859-1 and the particular database that any app will use for deciding the 'Genre' names, for a start...

I find that once this info is entered into iTunes and uploaded to the GraceNote database, it takes 24-72 hours for it to become available when a CD is entered into a computer running Internet-enabled iTunes (Mac or PC). However, you may well notice that the same CD placed in a computer running Windows Media Player will not register the uploaded metadata. That's because WMP uses a different database ('AllMusicGuide') and AMG want you to send in a physical CD (finished product) here:

http://www.allmusic.com/product-submissions

Otherwise:

The Hofa app has a distinct advantage in that it doesn't require the installation of any app by the end user...very important for computer-challenged clients!

The Merging MTCD Image Player is not yet in a fully 'releasable' state...can occasionally mis-read CD-Text, etc.

If you are a Mac user, then head over to the 'Dougscripts' web site and get the 'CD-Text to CD-info' script...very handy for checking CD-Text on a physical CD and avoiding the potentially mistake-prone process of adding the info to iTunes.

It all seemed so simple, at one time...

gb
Graemme Brown
Zen Mastering
1460 Wild Rose Drive
Gabriola Island, BC
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+1.604.874.9096

"A Horus, A Horus; My Kingdom for a Horus!"

Rob
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Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Redbook CD Track Names

Postby Rob » Thu Mar 19, 2015 07:41

Thanks for the tips Graemme!

I have another question. I thought I figured out how to put a 3 second gap between tracks on my CD but I just played it back with MTCD Image Player and it is sans gaps. Could it be the gaps will end up on the physical media but not in the PMI playback? I hate wasting discs and there does not appear to be a way to cut an ISO file to test this.
- rob
Pyramix 10 Native Master on a MBP Retina Bootcamp partition running Windoze 7 64bit, Horus with 32 premo inputs and 8 premo outs and Hapi with new AKD8DP.

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Re: Redbook CD Track Names

Postby fl » Thu Mar 19, 2015 09:16

There are gaps and there are gaps...

Whatever you put on the timeline gets put on the disc. If you want silences between selections, you have to separate each cut's Clip from its neighbour - by three or however many seconds you'd like. If you want the CD player's time display to count up to the end of each cut, and then at the end of the tune switch to a countdown to the beginning of the next, then you must place a CD Stop marker at the end of each selection (before the gap of silence). If you don't use a CD Stop, then Pyramix will just see the cuts as extending from CD Start to CD Start - with no (official) gaps, er, pauses, and any silence on the Timeline just gets included as part of the cut.

If you do choose to use CD Stops, you can manipulate the pause lengths (and even the whole running order) from the CD/SACD Tab's top section (which controls the CD's contents, whereas the lower right section of the Tab controls the positioning of the Markers only). Want a longer pause before a certain cut? Just increase it in the "Pauses" column.

A word of warning: CD markers sit on CD Frame boundaries, of which there are only 75 per second. Since audio sample boundaries are much more frequent, it is possible that a tiny portion of your track's Clip could extend into the CD frame immediately preceding a CD Start marker, or past the one following a CD Stop. If this is the case, and you use the CD/SACD Tab to move your cuts around and/or change pause lengths, you run the risk of leaving little slivers of audio file - shorter than a CD Frame - behind. These can be difficult to see, especially when you are zoomed out to see the whole disc, but they can cause all manner of problems that can lead you to doubt your sanity. A way to avoid this is to use the CD Marker Offsets which you define in the Settings.
Frank Lockwood, Toronto, ON, Canada
http://LockwoodARS.com
• Pyramix Native
• Mac Mini 6.2 (Quadcore i7) - Bootcamp 5.1.5621 - Win7 Pro SP1 64
• HP 7100 Mini-tower - Win10 Pro 64 1809
• RME Fireface 800 ASIO driver 3.125 or ASIO4All 2.13

Rob
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 22:34
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Redbook CD Track Names

Postby Rob » Thu Mar 19, 2015 21:50

Thanks Frank! All is well now.
- rob
Pyramix 10 Native Master on a MBP Retina Bootcamp partition running Windoze 7 64bit, Horus with 32 premo inputs and 8 premo outs and Hapi with new AKD8DP.

Perfect Record
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Re: Redbook CD Track Names

Postby Perfect Record » Wed Apr 01, 2015 17:07

Rob wrote:
I have another question. I thought I figured out how to put a 3 second gap between tracks on my CD but I just played it back with MTCD Image Player and it is sans gaps....


Getting spacing right between tracks is a bit of an art. We always do the spacing within the project window, and we're always rigorous about doing a long audition across the gap- 40 seconds or so before the track start, to determine if it feels right.

Tempo, key and dynamics all affect how long the gap should be.

If you get it so it feels right in the EDL, then it will feel right on the CD. I'd never make changes in the CD window.

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Graemme
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Re: Redbook CD Track Names

Postby Graemme » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:30

Perfect Record wrote:
If you get it so it feels right in the EDL, then it will feel right on the CD. I'd never make changes in the CD window.


Amen...

I think I've tried it a few times during beta testing but never in a real situation...for all the reasons you mention.
Graemme Brown
Zen Mastering
1460 Wild Rose Drive
Gabriola Island, BC
Canada V0R 1X5
+1.604.874.9096

"A Horus, A Horus; My Kingdom for a Horus!"