HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

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HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby 0VU » Thu Feb 12, 2015 17:29

I hope this is the right forum for these questions, apologies if not; hopefully the mods can move it to the most appropriate place. I have searched for info on these but couldn't find anything directly covering them.

Are there any plans to support more detailed routing capability on the HORUS or HAPI? Routing in 8 channel blocks is nice and quick to set up but I often have to work with a lot of disparate sources and working only in 8 channel blocks was something I found problematic on a SADiE LRX2.

Secondly, are there any plans for Dante support? I know I could externally bridge Ravenna/MADI to/from Dante but having the option built in would obviously reduce the box count and simplify setup a little where I need to interface with an existing Dante installation.

Thanks for your time.
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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby Graemme » Wed Feb 18, 2015 06:09

Dante support via the AES67 subset of Ravenna...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES67

In regard to breaking the '8-channel block' barrier, I agree with you. You may want to also direct your question to Merging HQ, as they don't always answer such questions here.

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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby Julian Gough » Sun Feb 22, 2015 00:51

I don't have a system up and running in front of me at the moment so can't really offer you a lot of detail and this is all from memory.

If you access the advanced bowser features via MT Discovery (right click over the Ravenna device in the list), there are ways of routing groups of any number of channels.

You start at the source device and place a number of channels onto the Ravenna network, then go to the destination device and pick that group from a drop down list. The route is made.

I only fiddled with this feature for a very short time and did make audio from a microphone input on one Horus appear in the left headphone output of another, so it does work, but user friendly it is not.

As for Ravenna and Dante compatibility. Ravenna claims to be AES67 compliant and Audinate said that they will support AES67 with firmware upgrades within a year, that year has just passed and from what I can tell nothing has happened. We should remember that Audinate (Dante) and ALC Networx (Ravenna) are competing commercial companies and it does appear that Dante are winning the race, so there is little incentive for them to toe the line with regard to AES67.

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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby Graemme » Tue Feb 24, 2015 06:55

Thanks Julian! I've just tried this myself and it wouldn't be something I'd want to do in front of a client ;->
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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby robertopisa » Wed Feb 25, 2015 02:01

If I am not wrong, they are multiples of 8 channels. You cannot route 3 channels, for example. I asked a similar question to the engineers at MT as I need to copy channels on multiple channels (upmix).
-R

Julian Gough wrote:If you access the advanced bowser features via MT Discovery (right click over the Ravenna device in the list), there are ways of routing groups of any number of channels.
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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby ljudatervinning » Thu Nov 05, 2015 18:30

I have been playing a lot with setting up different Ravenna configurations, and now I actually prefer doing it the "advanced" way instead of using the rather buggy RavennaEasyConnect.
I did not find any easy guides to do this, so I wrote some simple steps and hope it can help others.
If you configure your Ravenna network in the following order, you will have full control of the outcome.


1. Start MT Discovery and make sure all devices are present and on the same network.
2. For each device, open "advanced" configuration by right-clicking the unit in MT Discovery. Define what should be sent to the network by;
2a. making sure the sample rate is what you want.
2b. configure sending audio from the device to the network; Select IO, name, frame size and number of channels. (I always set Codec to L24)
3.For each device, open "advanced" configuration and define what should be received to the unit from the network
3a. Configure session sinks; select IO, source and delay. (I always set Codec to L24)
3b. Make sure channel count matches the source channel count.

Done!

Note: By using the advanced setup,you can configure any number of channels as long as they are in a consecutive. For example an 8 channel device can be configured with two output streams; one with 2 channels and one with 6 channels.
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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby buggyboy » Sat Dec 31, 2016 02:24

Hi ljudatervinning,

I'm sure I do not fully understand what is possible to do here and how to do it.

With this "advanced configuration", could I duplicate 2 channels, like having inputs 1 and 2 out to 1,2,3,4 as 1,2,1,2, on a single DA8? With inputs coming from the ASIO driver?

That would be great.

I tried to play with this, with"Application failure' as the only result so far, had to power off/on my Hapi.

If I create a new sink, for example, I cannot use the same source (ASIO driver) as it is already used in the first sink. If I reduce the channel count from 8 to say 4 on the first sink to start with, I get an error too (Channel map not supported). So, I don't know how to go about this.

Maybe what you are referring to is for communication from Horus to Horus, and cannot work with the ASIO driver?

Thank you


EDIT : YES! It works. Here are the detailed steps, for stereo replication on 4 channels, in case s'one else finds it useful. Actually, I followed carefully what ljudatervinning was explaining:

[I didn't create again a new configuration from scratch to write this, so some more steps may be necessary (like maybe restarting the ASIO host at some point? and I may have had some error msgs along the way), but at least you know that having 2 asio sources and 2 hapi sinks, all w/ 2 channels, enables channel replication. Use at your own risks though...]

All this was done with a connection up and running.

1. ASIO config : (open it in your browser by right clicking the already connected ASIO line in MT Discovery, then Open)

1.a) go to the Session Sources tab, and for the displayed pre-existing first source, set "Channel count" to 2, leave the rest unchanged. The droplist underneath the number of channels should read "ASIO Output 1, ASIO Output 2"
1.b) create a new 2nd source, still on the same Session Sources tab, by clicking the small icon located right below the "General settings" text. Give it 2 channels too, and make sure the droplist below also reads ASIO Output 1, ASIO Output 2.
1.c) Give this second source a Name or note whatever name is assigned automatically

Leave other tabs (Session sinks, Ins/outs....) unchanged.

So, that gives you 2 sources, linked to the same 2 ASIO output channels. Below are the steps to then configure Hapi with 2 sinks of 2 channels each, each sink using one of the 2 now available sources.


2. Hapi config : (open it by right clicking the already connected Hapi line in MT Discovery, then Open Advanced)

2.a) in a similar way as above, go to he Session Sinks tab, which shows an existing sink, and change its "Channel count"to 2 channels. The droplist below the channel count should read 1,2, and the first source (see 1.a) should be selected in the Source droplist
2.b) create a 2nd sink, with 2 channels again, and make sure the droplist below the channel count reads 3,4
2.c) For this 2nd sink, use the "Source" droplist and select the name of the second source (see 1.c above)

and voila, a stereo source read on a asio host will output to the DAC channels 1 and 3 for the source's Left channel, and obviously 2 and 4 for the Right channel.



Thank you ljudatervinning :D
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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby mpr » Mon Jan 02, 2017 00:45

buggyboy wrote:1. ASIO config : (open it in your browser by right clicking the already connected ASIO line in MT Discovery, then Open)

1.a) go to the Session Sources tab, and for the displayed pre-existing first source, set "Channel count" to 2, leave the rest unchanged. The droplist underneath the number of channels should read "ASIO Output 1, ASIO Output 2"
1.b) create a new 2nd source, still on the same Session Sources tab, by clicking the small icon located right below the "General settings" text. Give it 2 channels too, and make sure the droplist below also reads ASIO Output 1, ASIO Output 2.
1.c) Give this second source a Name or note whatever name is assigned automatically

Leave other tabs (Session sinks, Ins/outs....) unchanged.

So, that gives you 2 sources, linked to the same 2 ASIO output channels. Below are the steps to then configure Hapi with 2 sinks of 2 channels each, each sink using one of the 2 now available sources.


2. Hapi config : (open it by right clicking the already connected Hapi line in MT Discovery, then Open Advanced)

2.a) in a similar way as above, go to he Session Sinks tab, which shows an existing sink, and change its "Channel count"to 2 channels. The droplist below the channel count should read 1,2, and the first source (see 1.a) should be selected in the Source droplist
2.b) create a 2nd sink, with 2 channels again, and make sure the droplist below the channel count reads 3,4
2.c) For this 2nd sink, use the "Source" droplist and select the name of the second source (see 1.c above)

and voila, a stereo source read on a asio host will output to the DAC channels 1 and 3 for the source's Left channel, and obviously 2 and 4 for the Right channel.
Thanks for this. It makes sense that each DAC output pair needs a specific source object, even if both objects are referencing the same ASIO stream.

In addition to using 2channels of ASIO, I would also like to manually route 2 of HAPI's AES inputs directly to 2 of its 8 channel DAC outputs, without having to route thru the DAW.

After reading this thread and others, I am assuming I can do this direct routing using the same advanced tab in MT Discovery? (i.e.: create 2 channel source as AES 1-2, then create 2 channel destination as DAC 1-2?)

Any advice before diving into this?

Thanks!
Mark
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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby buggyboy » Mon Jan 02, 2017 02:25

Hi Mark,
mpr wrote:
buggyboy wrote: I am assuming I can do this direct routing using the same advanced tab in MT Discovery? (i.e.: create 2 channel source as AES 1-2, then create 2 channel destination as DAC 1-2?)

Any advice before diving into this?

not much of an advice, but out of curiosity, I just tried with a spdif input, and got no luck. :(
I created a source in the Hapi advanced config, 2 channels, with IO = SPDIF (other choice is AES)
Then a third sink linked to this source, 2 ch too, outputting to ch 5 and 6 (1 to 4 being used for ASIO by 2 other sinks)

On Hapi's meter, I can see my 2 input channels in the SPDIF (2ch) box, but only 4 channels (instead of 6) in the D/A 1(8ch) box. So I guess (I didn't connect an amp, just looked at the meters), that doesn't work as wished.
On the other hand, the sink config page shows an established connection, no error.

Well, that would be a sort of override of the Hapi's main "non-advanced" config (routing for D/A 1), that says that D/A 1 gets its input from Ravenna, period.
If I change it to SPDIF, then I can hear my SPDIF input, but that's not what we want, It just confirms that my spdif source works fine. With this setting, the advanced config changes and doesn't propose any IO choice (used to be D/A 1). That means that I couldn't even do the same trick done on ASIO, replicating SPDIF ch1. Maybe It confirms that this is an advanced Ravenna config page. Run without Ravenna and you cannot do a thing (but why it allows to define non-Ravenna sources at all is unclear to me at this point though).

I tried. If that is at all possible, I don't know how. You might want to test with AES anyway, once you have the cables in place, it's really quick, but I see no reason to be optimistic, thinking that AES and SPDIF inputs should be treated the same way. If you do find a solution, would you mind posting it in this thread or sending me a PM?
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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby mpr » Wed Jan 04, 2017 00:49

buggyboy wrote:Well, that would be a sort of override of the Hapi's main "non-advanced" config (routing for D/A 1), that says that D/A 1 gets its input from Ravenna, period.
If I change it to SPDIF, then I can hear my SPDIF input, but that's not what we want, It just confirms that my spdif source works fine. With this setting, the advanced config changes and doesn't propose any IO choice (used to be D/A 1). That means that I couldn't even do the same trick done on ASIO, replicating SPDIF ch1. Maybe It confirms that this is an advanced Ravenna config page. Run without Ravenna and you cannot do a thing (but why it allows to define non-Ravenna sources at all is unclear to me at this point though).

I tried. If that is at all possible, I don't know how. You might want to test with AES anyway, once you have the cables in place, it's really quick, but I see no reason to be optimistic, thinking that AES and SPDIF inputs should be treated the same way. If you do find a solution, would you mind posting it in this thread or sending me a PM?
I spent the last few hours trying to get this working as well, and am getting the same results you got using SPDIF.

It is very odd that the Hapi session sink shows a valid connection to the DAC via the AES sap:// source, and the AES meter shows activity, but nothing gets delivered to the DAC :(

I guess the only work around is to manually configure this in the DAW. Anyone have any other potential solutions for hardwiring a stereo AES input to a stereo DAC output on Hapi / Horus?
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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby buggyboy » Wed Jan 04, 2017 02:42

mpr wrote:It is very odd that the Hapi session sink shows a valid connection to the DAC via the AES sap:// source, and the AES meter shows activity, but nothing gets delivered to the DAC :(
I had the exact same question, and reading your post gave me an idea : I still don't know about the Hapi session sink, but with the Hapi AES session source, you can create an ASIO Session sink linked to it. At least I start to understand what this source might be good for.

The next questions are:
a) what can we do with this new ASIO Session sink?
b) can it help achieve the goal of getting non-Ravenna Hapi digital input to the Ravenna connected D/A 1?

a) well, obviously enough, with this we get ASIO input on the Ravenna ASIO host, coming from the AES input. I checked, I don't get it without this new ASIO Session sink. That may help getting rid of an additional sound card on the DAW, or at least free one of its digital input. Come to think of it, that's a somewhat better configuration for me.*

b) yes, by enabling an ASIO host to get AES input that it can send back to its ASIO output. I don't see a way to do it within the ASIO driver/Hapi configuration, in a way that would enable to shutdown the DAW and get the AES still converted (without modifying the Hapi settings). Is that the goal?

Anyone have any other potential solutions for hardwiring a stereo AES input to a stereo DAC output on Hapi / Horus?

the way you ask this, not mentioning ASIO output, makes me wonder if I understand well enough why you want to do it (or what exactly). If it's because you want this AES input to be converted with no DAW attached, that's part of the regular Hapi/Horus configuration. If as I understood the first time you asked, you want this AES input converted at the same time as getting ASIO output converted on other channels, you have a PC running a ASIO host, now you can configure this host to send its input from AES to the ASIO output for D/A 1 conversion. Is this good enough? Or do you perhaps have more problems with latency or asio host functionality?


* EDIT: oops, I could have thought about it before : it's (obviously) possible to get this ASIO input from SPDIF more simply from EasyConnect. That makes this entire post rather useless :oops: I thought I shouldn't use EasyConnect after having defined an advanced configuration, but looks like it's still working
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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby mpr » Wed Jan 04, 2017 04:25

buggyboy wrote:b) yes, by enabling an ASIO host to get AES input that it can send back to its ASIO output. I don't see a way to do it within the ASIO driver/Hapi configuration, in a way that would enable to shutdown the DAW and get the AES still converted (without modifying the Hapi settings). Is that the goal?


This is one potential workaround, but essentially I am trying to use 2 channels of the Hapi DAC with 2 channels of the Hapi AES input as I would a stand alone converter.

buggyboy wrote:the way you ask this, not mentioning ASIO output, makes me wonder if I understand well enough why you want to do it (or what exactly). If it's because you want this AES input to be converted with no DAW attached, that's part of the regular Hapi/Horus configuration. If as I understood the first time you asked, you want this AES input converted at the same time as getting ASIO output converted on other channels, you have a PC running a ASIO host, now you can configure this host to send its input from AES to the ASIO output for D/A 1 conversion. Is this good enough? Or do you perhaps have more problems with latency or asio host functionality?
I am using Hapi in a mastering setup and so I require: 1) transfer DAC, 2) transfer ADC and 3) monitor DAC.

My mastering console allows me to route any digital source to the monitor DAC so that I can always monitor from the same exact DAC, which is important to me. This would allow me to have the Tidal music player, CD player and 2 DAW feeds all going to the same monitor DAC (from the Hapi). This makes level referencing a breeze.

So without the 'hardwire' behavior, this means I need to have the DAW active in order connect the AES input to monitor DAC output, which is not ideal, but doable for now.

buggyboy wrote:* EDIT: oops, I could have thought about it before : it's (obviously) possible to get this ASIO input from SPDIF more simply from EasyConnect. That makes this entire post rather useless :oops: I thought I shouldn't use EasyConnect after having defined an advanced configuration, but looks like it's still working
I see EasyConnect as a way to line up the 'blocks' very quickly from hardware to DAW. For me these blocks are 8 I/O analog, 8 I/O digital and another 2 I/O digital (spdif). But advance mode allows us to break up the blocks, the only problem is that you can't complete the puzzle...
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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby DJS » Wed Jan 04, 2017 23:46

So without the 'hardwire' behavior, this means I need to have the DAW active in order connect the AES input to monitor DAC output, which is not ideal, but doable for now.

When my Hapi is not recording, it sits in the loungeroom in stand alone mode operating as an 8ch DAC for my active dipole loudspeakers. No computer anywhere. Just set the input to the DAC card as AES in. I save this as a preset, but Hapi powers up each time like this.

I may have misinterpreted your issue though. I would just do the above and connect your three monitoing stereo sources to HAPI AES12, AES34, and AES56 inputs respectively. This works a treat.
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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby mpr » Thu Jan 05, 2017 04:52

DJS wrote:
misinterpreted your issue though. I would just do the above and connect your three monitoing stereo sources to HAPI AES12, AES34, and AES56 inputs respectively. This works a treat.

Im trying to use ASIO sources and Hapi AES sources together across a bank of 8 Hapi DACs and it doesn't look possible unless i patch thru the DAW.

I have a feeling that it is possible via Ravenna but they havent programmed it yet. If you stick to the preconfigured 'banks' then yes you can 1) route directly from hardware to hardware OR 2) go to / from Ravenna, but not both at same time on a single bank.

Of course I would love to be wrong about this...
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Re: HORUS/HAPI Routing & Dante?

Postby mpdonahue » Thu Jan 05, 2017 16:48

There is a new version of easy connect that will allow for much easier routing coming in the not so distant future. Dennis had it running at a recent show and it allowed for single channel routing across the network as well as some interesting routing group options.
All the best,
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