HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

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HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby archive » Tue Feb 03, 2015 22:13

For those of you using HAPI and/or HORUS for control room monitoring, how do you handle monitoring of digital sources that are not part of the Pyramix session?

For example, here in the mastering room I have a CD player (!) with SPDIF out and a media server with optical out. Pyramix (usually running at 96k) feeds the AES in of a Lavry DA10 for monitoring, and the CD player and media server also feed the DA10's SPDIF and optical in (usually at 44.1k). So I can easily monitor one of those three devices through the same DAC, just by switching input sources n the DA10.

I can't see how this sort of setup would be possible with HAPI, but I'd love to hear from someone who has found a solution. Maybe with the PMX monitor section and externals? But then the different sample rates ...

Thoughts?
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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby DJS » Tue Feb 03, 2015 22:22

Can you not just use two of the AES inputs on HAPI (using a Neutrik SPDIF/AES transformer) for the CD Player and Media Server. With the Media Server, you would have to find an optical converter or dispense with the optical. Or better still use JRiver on the PC. :)
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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby archive » Tue Feb 03, 2015 23:25

DJS wrote:Can you not just use two of the AES inputs on HAPI (using a Neutrik SPDIF/AES transformer) for the CD Player and Media Server. With the Media Server, you would have to find an optical converter or dispense with the optical. Or better still use JRiver on the PC. :)


Yes, I can see it that far, getting everything into HAPI via AES. But what happens if I have PMX running at 96k and want to quickly check something on CD or the media server (at 44.1k) for reference, without closing PMX? Maybe I am not grasping the internal HAPI routing, but this is not possible I think?
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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby Graemme » Wed Feb 04, 2015 09:00

Not currently possible. I use a hardware SRC to get my external 1fs devices into the Horus.

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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby DJS » Wed Feb 04, 2015 13:40

Since the sample rate for Hapi connected to PMX is set by Hapi, to quickly check a CD, while connected to a 96k PMX project, fire up the web browser, set HAPI SR to 44, and monitoring channel to AES 3&4 or whatever and play the CD. PMX will show the SR error on clips, until you change it back to 96k, but this doesn't matter.

I have done exactly this but close. Will try it in the next day or so.
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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby archive » Wed Feb 04, 2015 15:50

These are both good workarounds, thanks for your help. I actually have a good hardware src sitting idle here anyway so I'll likely give that a try. Cheers!
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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby Paulo M » Wed Feb 04, 2015 22:04

Maybe you need a monitor controller like this:

http://www.gracedesign.com/products/m920/m920.htm

or this:

http://www.gracedesign.com/products/m905/m905.htm

OK, just kidding, the SPDIF to AES converter is a workaround, but the hardware SRC is a better one, if you have one lying around.

Another way is to feed a pair of Horus/Hapi analogue ins from the Lavry analogue outs and keep the CD and Media player connected to the Lavry as they are.
Expensive though, as I was not sure from your post if you want to buy Horus/Hapi to replace the Lavry or was just curiosity.
Best regards,

Paulo M

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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby archive » Thu Feb 05, 2015 00:25

Paulo M wrote:Maybe you need a monitor controller like this:

http://www.gracedesign.com/products/m920/m920.htm

or this:

http://www.gracedesign.com/products/m905/m905.htm

OK, just kidding, the SPDIF to AES converter is a workaround, but the hardware SRC is a better one, if you have one lying around.

Another way is to feed a pair of Horus/Hapi analogue ins from the Lavry analogue outs and keep the CD and Media player connected to the Lavry as they are.
Expensive though, as I was not sure from your post if you want to buy Horus/Hapi to replace the Lavry or was just curiosity.


Hi Paulo,

I actually already have a custom monitor controller that I really like, though I have always admired the Grace stuff from afar.

My thought was that I might purchase Hapi to replace my current lot of converters (Lavry and Cranesong) and interfaces (Lynx and RME), hopefully stepping up the conversion quality and simplifying the whole setup in the process. This is strictly for mastering btw, just feeding an analog loop, an AES loop, and monitoring it all.

There is precious little info / opinion out there about the actual sound of the Hapi / Horus converters. I would need to demo them here myself before committing, but can anyone here comment on how they stack up to the usual mastering suspects, ie. Lavry, Prism, Crane Song, Weiss etc?

Best,

- J.
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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby mpdonahue » Thu Feb 05, 2015 19:03

The other thing you might consider is to just calibrate all your DA converters to the same operating level and just use the analog matrix on your mastering console... Not perfect, but at the end of the day probably the most ergonomic.
All the best,
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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby Mike Hatch » Thu Feb 05, 2015 20:12

To be quite honest, for the price the Horus SHOULD have on board SRC capability. Almost all my other equipment has. It's a pain that Horus or Hapi hasn't. We live in a multi-disciplinary world where different equipment NEEDS to be able to hook up without difficulty. Come on Merging....
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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby Graemme » Fri Feb 06, 2015 08:44

The following is 'somewhat informed' speculation that I won't be able to test until I'm back in the studio next week:

On the same PC as Pyramix is installed and running, using JRiver's MediaCenter (JRMC) application running on the MT ASIO Bridge driver:
Set JRMC output to upsample to your SR of choice.
Load a CD into the PC.
JRMC will let you treat a physically loaded (but not yet captured) CD just like a CD player.
In the CD-capture window, select the first track and press 'play'
In Pyramix, setup a stereo strip in the mixer to be fed from the same MT ASIO Bridge I/O channels that JRMC is 'sending' on (by default, 1&2).

Will test this setup some time soon. I use Sequoia and WaveLab with Pyramix, using the ASIO Bridge and it just 'works'.

Otherwise, I agree with Mike: There should be a hardware SRC option for Horus and Hapi.

Graemme
Graemme Brown
Zen Mastering
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"A Horus, A Horus; My Kingdom for a Horus!"
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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby archive » Fri Feb 06, 2015 22:30

Graemme wrote:The following is 'somewhat informed' speculation that I won't be able to test until I'm back in the studio next week:

On the same PC as Pyramix is installed and running, using JRiver's MediaCenter (JRMC) application running on the MT ASIO Bridge driver:
Set JRMC output to upsample to your SR of choice.
Load a CD into the PC.
JRMC will let you treat a physically loaded (but not yet captured) CD just like a CD player.
In the CD-capture window, select the first track and press 'play'
In Pyramix, setup a stereo strip in the mixer to be fed from the same MT ASIO Bridge I/O channels that JRMC is 'sending' on (by default, 1&2).

Will test this setup some time soon. I use Sequoia and WaveLab with Pyramix, using the ASIO Bridge and it just 'works'.

Otherwise, I agree with Mike: There should be a hardware SRC option for Horus and Hapi.


Alright, just tested this. I can get Samplitude to use the MT ASIO driver and play into the Pyramix MON section as an external. I didn't test playing into a mixer strip but assuming it works the same I can see this being very useful!

However, I couldn't get JRMC to show the MT ASIO driver in its list of available drivers. I did get it to play back a CD while upsampling to 96k though, so that works.

And here is something interesting. I could set DDP Creator to use the MT ASIO driver, and play 44.1k material directly into the Pyramix MON section at 96k. DDP Creator warns of the sample rate mis-match, but still plays. So where is the SRC taking place in this case? Is it godawful Windows background SRC, or something better happening within Pyramix?

Anyway, I can see how this all might be made to work. But I also vote for hardware SRC on Horus / Hapi.

Graemme, with your external-hardware-SRC-into-Horus-setup do you need to clock the output side of the SRC from the Horus?

Best,

- J.
J. LaPointe
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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby archive » Sat Feb 07, 2015 03:25

archive wrote:However, I couldn't get JRMC to show the MT ASIO driver in its list of available drivers.


Could this be due to the fact that I am running the 64 bit version of Pyramix and JRiver MC is 32 bit and therefore not able to access the 64 bit MT ASIO driver?
J. LaPointe
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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby Graemme » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:35

archive wrote:
Alright, just tested this. I can get Samplitude to use the MT ASIO driver and play into the Pyramix MON section as an external. I didn't test playing into a mixer strip but assuming it works the same I can see this being very useful!


Indeed, it's very useful for integrating other apps, like the standalone version of Izotope RX, etc.

archive wrote:However, I couldn't get JRMC to show the MT ASIO driver in its list of available drivers. I did get it to play back a CD while upsampling to 96k though, so that works.


I tested this today with a spectacular failure as the result. I'm using PMX 9.1.6 (32bit) and JRMC 20.0.66 (32bit) and I do see the ASIO Bridge driver in JRMC. However, when attempting to play a file from JRMC, my PC immediately plunges into a BSOD...

I tried it on a non-MassCore machine and the BSOD no longer occurred but JRMC throws up an error message when attempting to start playback using the ASIO Bridge driver.

archive wrote:And here is something interesting. I could set DDP Creator to use the MT ASIO driver, and play 44.1k material directly into the Pyramix MON section at 96k. DDP Creator warns of the sample rate mis-match, but still plays. So where is the SRC taking place in this case? Is it godawful Windows background SRC, or something better happening within Pyramix?


It's not happening in PMX. Pyramix SRC (Hepta) is timeline or offline specific, afaik.
I have been teaching myself to write a DDPi file handler for JRMC...but I'm also a stubborn and ADHD student, so who knows when I'll get it done.

archive wrote:Anyway, I can see how this all might be made to work. But I also vote for hardware SRC on Horus / Hapi.


archive wrote:Graemme, with your external-hardware-SRC-into-Horus-setup do you need to clock the output side of the SRC from the Horus?


Yes, which means I can't use the better Weiss SRC 'cos it has no external clock input.

Cheers,

Graemme
Graemme Brown
Zen Mastering
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Gabriola Island, BC
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"A Horus, A Horus; My Kingdom for a Horus!"
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Re: HAPI / HORUS and monitoring

Postby Graemme » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:37

archive wrote:
archive wrote:However, I couldn't get JRMC to show the MT ASIO driver in its list of available drivers.


Could this be due to the fact that I am running the 64 bit version of Pyramix and JRiver MC is 32 bit and therefore not able to access the 64 bit MT ASIO driver?


Could be that...And did you turn on the ASIO Bridge in the VS3 settings control panel?
Graemme Brown
Zen Mastering
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Canada V0R 1X5
+1.604.874.9096

"A Horus, A Horus; My Kingdom for a Horus!"
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