V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

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V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby ARS » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:34

Hello all,

Yesterday I upgraded from an old V6.2 to V8.1, from a WIndows7 (32bit) to Windows7 (64bit) PC.

I must say, I am amazed about how much bugs still did not get resolved.

1. the graphic bug in the crossfade editor: the buttons are greyed-out, until you press eg. next fade button, then all the icons become "active"
2. while having the track groups on: no selection/auto solo/auto mute/collapsed - I am frequently able to have TWO (multi-)tracks in solo at the same time. This is absolutely unprofessional, especially when a client comes in and wants to listen to some takes. The only way out is clicking on the track that should not be in solo anymore, and then on the one you want to solo.

These two popped up in just under 10 minutes. I will post plenty more of the ancient bugs as I work in V8.1

3. I wonder if this one will still be there: in V6.2 when the track groups are collapsed, and you are placing takes (recorded on multitrack1, sequentially) on multiple tracks (time-algined) for editing, it is possible to break the grouped takes. Once you know what to look for, you can see it happening when dragging the take down. When it happens, the multitrack take plays back in MONO, the other channels are sometimes shifted by minutes, or an hour. A variant of this one is when you drag down to the lowest track. Here it happens 1/5 times that you end up with a mono version. The only solution is to replace those takes from the media manager.

Also, already a new bug: some elements in the transport toolbar (eg the new "fader alignment"dropdown menu) is half-visible, or disappears and then appears when I mouse over it.

All of this is on a normal PC, with Intel graphics.
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby a.stinson » Wed Mar 12, 2014 06:11

Are you using templates or sessions that were created in version 6?

If not you should try re-building a template from scratch in v8.1, I've seen some strange behaviour when using old sessions in a later version of Pyramix.
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby ARS » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:35

Well, of course I am finishing a V6 project for now.
I will record in v8 in a few days.

In the meantime, how do we contact bugreport ?
The link on top of the forum brings me to a general support inquiry.

At the Soundscape sitem there was a bugreport@ email address.
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby klaukholm » Wed Mar 12, 2014 17:08

ARS wrote:Well, of course I am finishing a V6 project for now.
I will record in v8 in a few days.

In the meantime, how do we contact bugreport ?
The link on top of the forum brings me to a general support inquiry.

At the Soundscape sitem there was a bugreport@ email address.


The contact info is in the manual.
ASM is always nice to have in these situations
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby fl » Wed Mar 12, 2014 17:11

ARS wrote:how do we contact bugreport ?
The link on top of the forum brings me to a general support inquiry.


That will work fine for a bug report - or a direct email to support@merging.com. Both ways get a message to David Jacques, who can either deal with it directly, or pass it along to the right people.

I, too, have noticed the greyed out buttons in the Crossfade Editor, but running my mouse pointer over them without clicking brings them to full display. With the Track Group soloing, at start-up, frequently both my Groups are soloed, but clicking in the track headers to cycle back and forth between the groups is enough to get things running properly. As I like to record with a new Playlist for every take, I seldom require more than two Track Groups for editing.

I don't quite understand your problem with multi-track takes playing back as mono and losing their grouping. Are you talking about Clip Grouping, or Track Grouping? Before you record, do you enable the setting to "Group recorded Clips together" in the Settings > Project > Record window? Wouldn't playback panning be determined by the settings in the Mixer? Or are you talking about playback in the Media Manager's Trimmer, which will play back stereo files as two channel, but will play multi-track files as mono?
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby ARS » Wed Mar 12, 2014 19:02

They are recorded as grouped, interleaved pyramix fils.
I am able to drag down multritrack grouped parts that were recorded live/together, to a collapsed track and loose grouping AND sync between them !

I did not confirm this behaviour in V8 yet, because I need to record my first project with it this weekend.
Also, we took the habit to record all takes in-place, using 8-15 track groups. This avoids the problem. But the bug is there.

I will contact support when things calm down, and check this particular bug in the next sessions.
I also have the nasty wrong track assignment bug I reported a year ago. I wonder if this is also still around...

btw what is ASM ? If not assembler ?
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby fl » Wed Mar 12, 2014 20:06

ARS wrote:They are recorded as grouped, interleaved pyramix fils.
I am able to drag down

down?

ARS wrote:multritrack grouped parts that were recorded live/together, to a collapsed track and loose grouping AND sync between them !

Wow, I've never seen that. What happens if instead of clicking and dragging from the Media Manager, you just highlight the desired Clip there, then "Place" it, using Control-P, to any of the options which pop up (head to cursor, to original time-code location...)?

ARS wrote:I did not confirm this behaviour in V8 yet, because I need to record my first project with it this weekend.
Also, we took the habit to record all takes in-place, using 8-15 track groups. This avoids the problem. But the bug is there.

So you add a new Track Group for each Take? Or do you have a set number of Track Groups created already, and then record to them one by one?

Are these different Tracks all routed to the same Mixer Strip(s), or does each Group get its own Strip or Strips? If I may humbly suggest, have a look at the Playlist function, as it may be more convenient to have all takes available at once, while only having one displayed at a time - and with a single Track(s) to Mixer Strip(s) routing. I'm not saying there isn't a bug, but rather that there might be a way around it which also has benefits for streamlining your working process.

ARS wrote:btw what is ASM ? If not assembler ?

Annual Software Maintenance - the optional "tax" which Merging charges which entitles you to free updates during the year. It usually works out to be a good deal, in that full number upgrades (like from v.7 to 8) are free, and at odd times, useful feature upgrades, such as the addition of AAF export, or the Advanced EQ plugin, are offered.
Frank Lockwood, Toronto, ON, Canada
http://LockwoodARS.com
Native 11.1.5/Native Music 9.1.10
Win7 Pro SP1 64/32
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby klaukholm » Wed Mar 12, 2014 20:57

ARS wrote:btw what is ASM ? If not assembler ?

Annual Software Maintenance - the optional "tax" which Merging charges which entitles you to free updates during the year. It usually works out to be a good deal, in that full number upgrades (like from v.7 to 8) are free, and at odd times, useful feature upgrades, such as the addition of AAF export, or the Advanced EQ plugin, are offered.[/quote]

And just as important for many, high quality support
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby ARS » Wed Mar 12, 2014 22:04

fl wrote:
ARS wrote:multritrack grouped parts that were recorded live/together, to a collapsed track and loose grouping AND sync between them !

Wow, I've never seen that. What happens if instead of clicking and dragging from the Media Manager, you just highlight the desired Clip there, then "Place" it, using Control-P, to any of the options which pop up (head to cursor, to original time-code location...)?


We used to record all takes sequentially in one track. Then I copy that track group to new track groups (collapsed) and drag down takes, to the right spot in time. So all takes are visually more or less time aligned (as in Sequoia, but there it is automated ?). It is while dragging the takes from one track group to another that the bug happens. As I wrote, now we record every take in-place on the fly.

fl wrote:
ARS wrote:I did not confirm this behaviour in V8 yet, because I need to record my first project with it this weekend.
Also, we took the habit to record all takes in-place, using 8-15 track groups. This avoids the problem. But the bug is there.

So you add a new Track Group for each Take? Or do you have a set number of Track Groups created already, and then record to them one by one?


Depending on the project we create enough identical track groups, and record to them one by one. Can we post images on this forum ?
Not all takes are the entire piece, so you can have 5 takes on the same track group, different parts in the piece. It looks like a big puzzle, but you can listen to any fragment in any take instantly. This way it is enormeously quick to make the right decision, in the correct musical flow.

fl wrote:Are these different Tracks all routed to the same Mixer Strip(s), or does each Group get its own Strip or Strips? If I may humbly suggest, have a look at the Playlist function, as it may be more convenient to have all takes available at once, while only having one displayed at a time - and with a single Track(s) to Mixer Strip(s) routing. I'm not saying there isn't a bug, but rather that there might be a way around it which also has benefits for streamlining your working process.


I am not interesed in having just one take displayed. We need to be able to switch between all of them, instantly, while in play. All our notes are on the score.
All different track groups are routed to the same mixer strips.
How do you use the playlist function for quick editing/quick comparison between eg. 13 takes (if you want to hear if the high Bb in the flute is also sharp there) ?
With our method it takes exactly 10 seconds to hear them all 13.

ARS wrote:btw what is ASM ? If not assembler ?

fl wrote:Annual Software Maintenance - the optional "tax" which Merging charges which entitles you to free updates during the year. It usually works out to be a good deal, in that full number upgrades (like from v.7 to 8) are free, and at odd times, useful feature upgrades, such as the addition of AAF export, or the Advanced EQ plugin, are offered.


Yes, but that is exactly my disappointment. I upgraded from v6 to v8 and the same problems are there.
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby klaukholm » Wed Mar 12, 2014 22:14

If you have the ASM, use it.
ASM provides rights to a basic telephone support (within reason) during office office hours (09.00AM – 18.00PM)
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby fl » Wed Mar 12, 2014 23:55

ARS wrote:We used to record all takes sequentially in one track. Then I copy that track group to new track groups (collapsed) and drag down takes, to the right spot in time. So all takes are visually more or less time aligned (as in Sequoia, but there it is automated ?). It is while dragging the takes from one track group to another that the bug happens. As I wrote, now we record every take in-place on the fly.


Okay, I get it now. When I tried this on my system (v. 8.1.11 on XP 32 bit), I took a multi-track project where all tracks were in one Track Group, duplicated the Groups in the Track Group Tab, and then placed several takes from the session in sequence in the first Track Group. These were also .pmf files, five tracks each, interleaved. I had all Track Groups set with Auto Collapse and Auto Solo. I found I could drag clip groups from one Track Group to another, with no loss of track-to-track sync, and playback was normal - as panned in the mixer, not Mono. The only issue I had was that when dragging a take from one Group to another, I had would click on the first track, hold and drag over the next lower Track Group, but I had to drag until my mouse pointer was over the next group so that the Auto Collapse thing would close the first group and open the second, at which point my pointer is now over the fourth or fifth track so I had to move it up again to get things onto the proper Tracks. That's it - just a little detour. No issues at all. I second the motion for you to contact Merging Support directly to see if there is a unique problem with your system.

ARS wrote:Depending on the project we create enough identical track groups, and record to them one by one. Can we post images on this forum ?

Not easily. You can transfer images to some online storage, and then include links in your post.

ARS wrote:Not all takes are the entire piece, so you can have 5 takes on the same track group, different parts in the piece. It looks like a big puzzle, but you can listen to any fragment in any take instantly. This way it is enormeously quick to make the right decision, in the correct musical flow.


ARS wrote:How do you use the playlist function for quick editing/quick comparison between eg. 13 takes (if you want to hear if the high Bb in the flute is also sharp there) ?
With our method it takes exactly 10 seconds to hear them all 13.


I get it that sometimes it's useful to be able to audition the same section of music from different takes in rapid succession, and I can do that quickly with playlists, particularly when I "tear off" the Playlists Tab so that it's in its own window. Once the clips are all dragged so that they allign in time with each other, it's just a double click on the Playlist name in the list to jump from one to the other very quickly. True, I can't see them all at once, but then again, I find the simpler display less stressful. Each to his own.

I wonder if your problem with hearing panned multi-track recordings as mono when dragged might have something to do with the Media Manager's Trimmer, which plays back highlighted Master Clips in mono if they contain more than two tracks. Sometimes you can click on a clip in the Media Manager, and then move your mouse pointer off the tab so that it closes and you're looking at the timeline with all your tracks and groups. Normally, a spacebar press will start playing here, but Pyramix still thinks you're back in the Trimmer, so instead of playing what you want in the Timeline display, it plays the mono version of the multi-track clip selected in the Media Manager, which is also initiated by a spacebar press. Yeah, annoying. I've installed WizMouse on my machine so that whatever window my pointer is hovering over, becomes the currently active window. There may be a function enabling this behaviour built right into Windows 7 or 8 already, but I've found it can help to minimize this kind of "do what I want, not what I say" issue. This kind of thing can also occur when you've been typing in the Notes Tab, and then move back to the timeline, but Pyramix still thinkg you're typing notes.

ARS wrote:Yes, but that is exactly my disappointment. I upgraded from v6 to v8 and the same problems are there.


Yes, well, I think that lately, a lot of Merging's resourses have been diverted to Horus development (and whatever the mini-Horus they're about to release), meaning that sadly, a number of issues remain unfixed. The best thing to do is complain directly to Support, as they do not read the forums all that often.
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby ARS » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:33

fl wrote:Okay, I get it now. When I tried this on my system (v. 8.1.11 on XP 32 bit), I took a multi-track project where all tracks were in one Track Group, duplicated the Groups in the Track Group Tab, and then placed several takes from the session in sequence in the first Track Group. These were also .pmf files, five tracks each, interleaved. I had all Track Groups set with Auto Collapse and Auto Solo. I found I could drag clip groups from one Track Group to another, with no loss of track-to-track sync, and playback was normal - as panned in the mixer, not Mono. The only issue I had was that when dragging a take from one Group to another, I had would click on the first track, hold and drag over the next lower Track Group, but I had to drag until my mouse pointer was over the next group so that the Auto Collapse thing would close the first group and open the second, at which point my pointer is now over the fourth or fifth track so I had to move it up again to get things onto the proper Tracks. That's it - just a little detour. No issues at all. I second the motion for you to contact Merging Support directly to see if there is a unique problem with your system.


Yes, but it gets worse. It also happens if the source track where moving from is collapsed. So by definition you see the same mono part. It is even more buggy when not all collapsed tracks have the same track visible.
And then there is an additional bug when dragging to the track group touching the bottom of the window - this almost always breaks the multitrack group.

It is my point there is a SERIOUS bug : interleaved multitrack should NEVER break or be ungrouped without using the user command ungroup !
We also had this happen doing editing corrections (ripple) in a mixed trckcount project. NEVER do this on the same destination track. In V6 this also broke the multitrack link.
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby ARS » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:39

fl wrote:Yes, well, I think that lately, a lot of Merging's resourses have been diverted to Horus development (and whatever the mini-Horus they're about to release), meaning that sadly, a number of issues remain unfixed. The best thing to do is complain directly to Support, as they do not read the forums all that often.


Again, to make it clear, there is no mono mixer bug. What happens is my multitrack parts are broken, and just one mono track is active in the arrangement window.

I am amazed there seems to be no betatest forum over here. In the days where the Soundscape platform was not killed softly by SSL, the forum was very active (and was monitored continuously by the software developers), and NO SINGLE BUG made it to release versions. With the exception of the one odd thing a year that would slip by.

If I have time next session, I will try to trigger the recording tracks routing bug in V8.1. If this one is still there, this is becoming a nightmare...
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby J.Wajer » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:28

ARS wrote: I am amazed there seems to be no betatest forum over here. In the days where the Soundscape platform was not killed softly by SSL, the forum was very active (and was monitored continuously by the software developers), and NO SINGLE BUG made it to release versions. With the exception of the one odd thing a year that would slip by.


Hi ARS,

ow, but there is a betatest forum out here. It is just not publicly visible. I have been pounding on their doors for over 7 years now with bugs, additions, suggestions, but usually they dont listen, or only partly listen... after years of pounding! They seem to be in their own bubble (<- they hate me for saying this), only vaguely implementing what the market is asking for, copying what other parties are doing wrong, and basically trying to keep up appearances. Whats new? But... the company is still very small, with little or no overhead, so that might explain why things are left for dead....for years.


P.S. I might be green, but I am not in any way affiliated with Merging. I just happen to be a poweruser with a big mouth..that made me a mod here.
...Gracefully Ignored...
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Re: V8.1 upgrade from V6.2 - bug disappointment

Postby ARS » Thu Mar 13, 2014 13:43

But that is ludicrous and utterly unprofessional !

Do the Merging team realize what happens to THEIR public image when a chef comes in to listen to the soundcheck, only for us to realize that on playback ALL tracks are playing through the wrong mixer channels ?

If that bug is still there, a. bugreport will have me stalking them, and b. I will ask for a refund of my two upgrades until this issue is resolved.
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